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yeah; formal debate

by: Miep

Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 00:18:20 AM EST


I'd get very much more interested in this blog if we could have a formal debate, Laura.
Miep :: yeah; formal debate
You've got the folks.

First, we should address the topics. Small blog and good bloggers, so we should be able to go on quickly from there.

So, we should have a thing where we suggest topics of debate. We should all yell and scream some and then kind of vote.

Already, we will have done a lot. But I would hope that in the process; we will have processed the debates some, to the point where we can then go on and yell and scream more effectively.

What do you think?

Miep
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yeah; formal debate | 37 comments
You make the interest, Miep (5.00 / 1)
I'm just the janitor here.

Set it up.

I'll be the judge. (0.00 / 0)
First resolution:

Resolved: Religious Education is Child Abuse.

Pick a side.

I'd certainly consider (4.00 / 3)
the three summer Texas Southern Baptist Boy's Camps I was forced to go to as abuse. I've tried to convince myself that  Mom had my broadest interests at heart when the order to ship out came down, but the reality is that it was an avenue of escape for her, not a positive source of enlightenment for me, or my brothers.

These were my formative Redneck hatred cultivation years though. I was exposed to the full squalor and primitiveness of the Texas version of God's love. The kind of love that leaves you thankful that you returned home with only a forced haircut instead of contusions and gray matter dribbling from your ears.

Really not much that's debatable here.

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
Appalachian Service Project (4.25 / 4)
Sort of like Habitat for Humanity minus Jimmy Carter.  We went to Tennessee to  help rebuild a family home that had been washed away by a flood.  Made a pen pal friend named Lenny -- his family's home was the one we were rebuilding.  I would have to read letters in front of the congregation when I would receive one.

And a 2 week canoe trip to Algonquin Provincial Park in Canada.

Had a young, dynamic minister growing up.

If only he could have taken God and Jesus out of it, it would have been a thoroughly character building experience.

Anyway, not all bad until I realized I liked cock and some dissonance set in.

[ Parent ]
Removing Jesus from my experiences (4.33 / 3)
would have left me surrounded by idjits even more confused than before without the guidance of the good book. My instincts tell me there is danger in that situation! :o)

Of course there were canoe races and other athletic programs to participate in, and I did partake of those because they were a diversion from the perversion of actual tent revivals and histrionics of worship that stopped just short of Shakers and Snakers :o) But there was no avenue of personal enlightenment beyond honing my own personal physical and mental defense skills.

The pressure to conform, no...more like surrender to Jesus, was immense and it came in subtle and not so subtle forms. The angle they used on me was my obvious misfittedness in that I looked different than the other 3 or 400 other kids because I sported long(ish) hair. The teasing and mocking was relentless. How does one kid, no matter how proficient in self defense, defend against numbers like 400 to 1? He doesn't, period.

So, one day a deacon offered (manipulated my fear and weariness) to take me into town for a haircut. The ticket to my salvation! :o) Fuckit! I agreed to go. He told the barber to give me a "regular boy's haircut". After coming out looking like what I thought was the cartoon character called Johnny Quest, I was able to melt anonymously into the crowds of automatons who universally sported "regular boy's haircuts".

That surrender though, bothered me for years to come. I felt like I let myself down. When you consider that Mom went ballistic when she saw my head upon my returned to the Hippie Hovel called home and fully expected me to challenge those 400 kids when she intended to send me...back...next...year...I was set firmly on the path of full resistance to any form of religious experience :o)

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
My side is first and foremost (4.00 / 2)
the side of clarity.

It's been years for this one, hasn't it, Mr. O? Didn't we first "meet" on just such a thread?

So... what do you mean nowadays by "religious education"? Who is a "child"? And what do you mean by "abuse"?

Thank you, and remember... Make Debates, Not Slogans.

[ Parent ]
Well, vox, you certainly love them nits. (3.00 / 3)

It's been years, true. I guess since when I had a black friend in middle school and was told by the Sunday school teacher at Murray Hill Baptist Church in Jacksonville that I shouldn't associate with my friend because "he's a son of Ham" and therefore inferior. And a hundred other incidents in which the Bible, to which I was presumed to be susceptible, was quoted as authority.

Religious education is using the gullibility of the young to convince them that an adult is morally correct and in resonance with the universe through an unprovable authority based on a perception not transferable.

In short, do as I say because I know what god is thinking.

Teaching the young to ignore evidence and reject questioning of authority, using the social structure of religion.

Abuse is the using of power and authority to reduce the ability of the child to reason later in life. It's analogous to binding the feet, or genital mutilation to reduce pleasure. Binding the mind to authority.

It makes a person blind to the questionable aspects of reality as quoted by creationists and moralists, and can lead to painful cognitive dissonances later in life that cause pain to one's self and to others.

A child, specifically, is a young human who is still prone to believe adults embedded in social structures, such as judges, priests, teachers, and relatives. Dawkins points out the need for gullibility in human cultural transfers.

Someday, we'll understand you don't need to lie to children in order to acculturate them. I'm encouraged by the constant rise in the percentage of atheist, agnostic and "don't really care" in the oncoming generations.

The Christians are right: they're losing ground. Too bad world poverty is such fertile ground for Islam. The sight of all those Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Christians chanting away, very sad.

[ Parent ]
No, really I don't, Mr. O. (0.00 / 0)
And I do acknowledge that there is religious education of the sort you refer to in your first sentences. But there are other types of religious educations that encourage inquiry and doubt.

That's what I was trying to get at. It looks as if you are talking about a certain type of religious education, not RE in general.

Am I correct?

[ Parent ]
Not if you can't specify "some" of those RE. (0.00 / 0)
"Teaching inquiry" into the non-inquirable is kind of phony, I say. If there's evidence, it isn't religion. I thus define my term.  
[ Parent ]
iow, science degrees are void (0.00 / 0)
if they're from a school like Notre Dame?

Of course what you really want to talk about are those stone-age mooslims who've yet to contribute to humanity's scientific cache...lol.

[ Parent ]
Arabs, like Jews, (2.00 / 2)
tend to be intelligent, productive people.

Surely, it's not beyond your capacity to understand how one can hate a vicious, despicable religion without hating the people who are its prisoners?

[ Parent ]
No (0.00 / 0)
Not when the 'prison' population is skewed for effect. No.
[ Parent ]
Skewed for effect? (3.00 / 1)
You lost me, there.
[ Parent ]
The number/influence of blind zealots in garish mis-focus, (3.33 / 3)
while the geopolitical impetus remains supressed in all acceptable rhetoric. It wouldn't matter if the prisoners were atheists...we'd still strain for their 'liberation'.
[ Parent ]
In the past, (0.00 / 0)
the Catholic Church has been arguably as domineering, misogynist, and imperialist as Islam.  The unfortunate difference, IMO, is that in Islam these traits are "built into" the religion by an inherently inerrant "holy" book.
[ Parent ]
No. Just...no. (4.00 / 1)
I think I need to add a 'No' rating.

I could pick out random passages from the Bible and the Quran and the majority of non-scholarly people would assign the wrong source if made to choose. Much of it is  interchangeable. Islam is not inherently

domineering, misogynist, and imperialist

You're thinking of human history...and of traits which could be nearly universally applied to its 'actors', save a few indigenous known tribes.

[ Parent ]
Try reading, for once. (0.00 / 0)
In Islam these traits are "built into" the religion by an INHERENTLY inerrant "holy" book.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that every single word of the Bible is straight from God's lips.

[ Parent ]
You're tripping on your own language. Don't forget we're here. (0.00 / 0)
You're constantly referring to connections you didn't make.

I do it all the time.

[ Parent ]
Er...I know it's hard for you to imagine motivations of The Other out of religious context (0.00 / 0)
but you could try...I've seen you come close a few times.
[ Parent ]
I can imagine motivations of other people, (0.00 / 0)

that are not determined by early religious education.

I can also note variations in responses to the demands of problem-solving, where people just can't think that way.

And they literally can't tell you why, or even accept the possibility that they were brainwashed. Seen it a thousand times.

And no, I don't mind you psychoanalyzing me, or try to.

It's kinda fun figuring out where people have been brainwashed. There are trick phrases, odd ways of thinking.

You can go around corners so fast that a Harley will crash, from dragging its floorboards. It's a design error, correctable.

American minds are not designed to think about politics, but rather around it. Evasion, deflection, sheer refusal to admit evidence. Just like Sunday School, or madrassas. Schul, not so much, but certain areas are forbidden.

[ Parent ]
So you admit that religion is not the only mind-melter (3.50 / 2)
Well that's a step. Or maybe we should redefine religion to include the influence of the ruling class's media. I know plenty of non-religious zombies, and not all American.

(Still it seems you are pigeonholing billions of people based on the geography of their birth. Or, at least the majority who you hold responsible for what you (ahistorically)see as religion-induced irrationality.)  

[ Parent ]
No, I'm describing early religious education as child abuse. (5.00 / 1)
For the same reason that early sexual congress is described not as a sexual violation, but as a misuse of power relations.

Just read an interesting article on this subject in Foreign Policy about the decline of the RC Church in Ireland, in which several observations are made implying that RC control of the schools caused "moral ridigity", etc.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/a...

Re: mind-melters. That's an inapt term, to me. It's more a case of paralyzing the mind by adding penalties to certain modes and areas of inquiry. I've often thought that if I wrote a book about my conflict with religion, the title would be "Don't Go There!"

[ Parent ]
I think Laura (0.00 / 0)
asked a good question:

Are science degrees void if they are from Notre Dame?
Haverford?
Brandeis?
Swarthmore?
Earlham?
Southern Methodist University?
Brigham Young?
Mennonite College of Nursing at Illinois State University?

But moreso... if a high school or elementary school operating under a religious organization tells its students not to join said organization until they reach the age of majority, have asked the big questions and have come to their own unique conclusions... are they being abusive, even in the arena to which you appear to object - that is to say, religious belief?

[ Parent ]
I talk about kids, which you asked me to define, and you (3.00 / 1)
start in on the colleges.

Where is this neutral middle or highschool?

Did you read Supersoling's history of 400-1?

I thought it very accurate.

Try to follow the discussion.

[ Parent ]
No, Mr. O, forgive me, but (4.00 / 1)
you try to follow the debate.

So, schools that have a religious basis but offer legitimate science degrees are exempt from your first sweeping proposition?

I thought Mr. supersoling's description to be excellent as well. Which is why I rated it as such.

Wouldn't it be comforting if that defined all of religious education?

[ Parent ]
The debate is about early religious education. (0.00 / 0)
That's why it's CHILD abuse. Most people understand the term CHILD. I'm not talking about humans above the age of reason, as the RC church defines it, about twelve yoa.

Of course, science degrees might be valid, although I'd be interested in the actual content of cognitive science degrees from Notre Dame, or Liberty University, and the academic reputation, as determined by the evaluation of a tenure committee.

After a certain point, it's the individual that matters. I've talked to a few lecturers after speeches at Holy Hill, the cluster of seminaries, etc, just north of UC Berkeley campus, and I'd bet they're all atheists in their rational mind, but compartmented severely.

It's called loss of faith. There are many books about it. Pity people have to spend their childhood and early learning experiences with such dissonance. I admit, I was a bit conflicted by all the confusion about who, if anyone, was right about religion.

I even considered Thor, Freya, and religions of Egypt and the Far East, as it was so quaintly called. I sort of consider Confucian Buddhism as a good social plan, but without the supernatural aspects.

Really, what the hell does supernatural really mean? It's just a way of saying we don't know everything, but that hardly implies we should just make shit up.

[ Parent ]
Tell me what you know (0.00 / 0)
about Quaker education.

I can tell you a little about it, and I've not noted it looking anything like what you or anyone else is describing here.

It often starts in nursery school.

[ Parent ]
I like the Society. I'd hardly call it a religion. (0.00 / 0)
Is that the best you've got?

If calling something a religion counts, I'll trade you Scientology for Quakers...

[ Parent ]
Is that the best I've got? (4.00 / 1)
I suppose so. I'm not sure it matters in this case, though, if you would call it a religion, since it is one. And it engages in religious education.

That's what I'm trying to get at. Blanket statements about Religious Education being Child Abuse just don't quite reflect the reality of what's out there, and I offer but one example. I would talk about the Hongwanji Mission School Pacific Buddhist Academy in Honolulu, but I am not as familiar with it.

None of what I am trying to say negates the experiences of the thousands upon millions who have experienced what supersoling described, to a greater or lesser degree.

Thanks for the discussion, though!

[ Parent ]
Further, I would point out (0.00 / 0)
that your definition of "kids" is very fluid, and would of course include many adults who are locked into black/white, right/wrong thinking. "My way is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Yours is false and leads to Doom. There is Nothing in between."

I know quite a few people like that. Do you?

[ Parent ]
I don't accept the analysis. I'm not fluid about it. See above. (0.00 / 0)

I know lots of people who are binary. It's sort of efficient, like taking your hands off the steering wheel on the freeway. Works until a decision should have been made sooner.
[ Parent ]
Why not call him your coloured friend? You know you want to. (2.00 / 3)
I'm done "stalking" Otvos like I did MSOC many months ago. I have completed my roughdraft expose on his historical trollness. In short, Lord Byron is looking a lot better at this point compared to this asshat.

Yet, I won't post those findings at this rag. No need to according to Alexa. They currently have DFQ2 ranked at 192,850 in the US. This sewer comes in at 559,486. Though you guys are very popular in the Phillipines coming in at 31,626. Search terms helping you guys out include jihadist websites, supress as a subpoena, jihadist websites -- osc summary, orcinus american fascism, hamsher is an idiot, zelaya bush soto cano, and politicians who never worked.

Here are some Otvos quotes from his trolling days at DKos.

If Jews wish to wallow in their horrible history, I suppose they should be willing to accept the fact that it reminds people who to hate. Just like the colored, a term I much prefer to black.

I'm resistant to purposeful warping of perfectly good language terms in order to pick at old scabs. Comes a time, as Bill Cosby says, to just live your good values.

Never again? Palestine is a repeat of the ghetto. It doesn't work. Israel should revive that great old term "The Final Solution" for the Palestinian Problem.

[snip]
I would have preferred that Jews just keep being part of the society they find themselves in. The ahistorical paranoia about antisemitism is absolutely parallel to me with the victim mentality of the dark-skinned segment of American society.

[snip]

Maybe Jews tend to get too interested in controversy, and not enough in diplomacy. Could be cultural. You think Jews have a cultural bias toward controversy, dialectic, abstraction, nit-picking of the infuriating sort? I do. I think it comes from the school style.

So what have we learned here. Otvos likes the word nit. Fits in with his eugenics schtick. Also, some of his best friends are Jews and Coloured folks. How very progressive and left wing of him. SNot Not!


http://davefromqueens2.blogspo...
http://allaircraftarenotinvolv...

[ Parent ]
You are all kinds of nit. Egg of a flea, trivial diversion... (0.00 / 0)

Carry on.
[ Parent ]
There are occasions when it becomes more than a moral duty... (4.50 / 2)
...to speak one's mind; it becomes a pleasure.  

Ladies and Gentlemen, Stephen Fry:

http://www.dailymotion.com/vid...

[ Parent ]
That was a really good debate. Hitchens and Fry versus (5.00 / 1)
some weirdo African Catholic hierarch, and a middle-aged woman, recent convert to Catholicism from the British Parliament, proving her sincerity. Both fools, and well-sliced and diced by the opposition.

Well worth watching the entire debate.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/...

[ Parent ]
thanks everybody (0.00 / 0)
sorry I have this habit of forgetting.

But I do tend to come back. Thanks for the great feedback, now I'll go read it  :-)

oh, Jon Swift died, if you haven't heard. Sad.

jesus, look at all of this (0.00 / 0)
and here I am forgetting I started it.

Sorry about that.

I do try to help, though.

Right brain stuff, I guess.  

yeah; formal debate | 37 comments
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