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Why Capitalism Is Evil

by: Miep

Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 06:35:01 AM EST


From my and Jay's blog; Right Of Assembly. Jay wrote this, and wrote it and wrote it. Wow.

link here

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I was surprised by people's reaction to the conclusion Michael Moore drew in, Capitalism: A Love Story, that Capitalism Is Evil.  I thought people mostly knew that, or at least strongly suspected it, so the idea wouldn't be startling.

Of course capitalists don't think Capitalism is evil.  But many progressives, too, were taken aback by Moore's blunt conclusion -- either disturbed by the potential implications, or, more often, apparently not having thought about it deeply enough to have a clear opinion.

But many more people than just Michael Moore have thought deeply about whether Capitalism is Evil, and the arguments and evidence, when laid out (as I will shortly do), demonstrate that Capitalism is indeed evil, by any reasonable definition "evil."  In other words, Capitalism is not just evil, it is VERY evil -- or, we might say, Capitalism can be proved Evil beyond a reasonable doubt.

Miep :: Why Capitalism Is Evil
Capitalism

Moore attempted to reveal Capitalism's dark side by showing how Capitalism systematically causes serious, unnecessary harm, inconsistent with our basic moral commitments.  Perhaps more important, Moore attempted to break the taboo around criticizing Capitalism and to say the words aloud -- "Capitalism Is Evil."

But breaking down the layers of capitalist-apologist propaganda that have accumulated in our brains, and challenging our preconceptions about Capitalism, is no small job.  People's reactions to the movie revealed many of the false meme's lurking in our subconscious, like, "Capitalism may be bad, but the alternatives are worse," and "Capitalism has some negative effects, but the overall benefits of Capitalism would be positive if we protected against its harsher aspects," and "Replacing Capitalism would surely eliminate freedoms, so we might not be better off, and we could be much worse off."

I will confront these memes not with my own arguments, but instead with the much deeper thinking of several subject matter experts: Michael Albert, Joel Kovel, Samuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis, and Michael Moore.

Michael Albert's book, Parecon; Joel Kovel's book, The Enemy of Nature, Samuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis' book, Capitalism and Democracy, as well as Moore's documentary, Capitalism: A Love Story, thoroughly consider the question of whether Capitalism is Evil, and their combined arguments carry more force than any one argument alone.

Capitalism's Capitalist

Albert approaches Capitalism from the standpoint of economic justice, and argues forcefully that Capitalism's methods and outcomes are intrinsically destructive of people and institutions.  Kovel presses an environmental critique, showing that regardless of the negative social implications (which he nonetheless details impressively), Capitalism necessarily will result in the destruction of our environment, nature generally, and eventually the planet -- so Capitalism is inexorably opposed to humanity, and indeed all life. Bowles and Gintis consider the conditions necessary for Democracy, and the extent to which Capitalism not only undermines the institutions of Democracy, but also makes people less capable of governing themselves.  Finally, Moore approaches the question from an ethic of caring, attempting to illustrate that Capitalism exacts an intolerable and unnecessary toll on people's lives, and is inconsistent with our most basic values.

I will first lay out the four arguments in greater depth, and then consider whether the most popular defenses of Capitalism can survive the heat of these critiques.  We will see that they do not, which in turn begs the question of possible alternatives to Capitalism that might create for us a better world, or at least a sustainable and less-bad world.  That question I will answer, too, but separately, as part of my Economic Power series.

Parecon Small
Michael Albert
Parecon: Life After Capitalism
Michael Albert sums it up like this:  

Capitalist globalization produces poverty, ill-health, shortened life-spans, reduced quality of life, and ecological collapse...Humanity's well-being does not guide the process, but is instead sacrificed on behalf of private profit.

That's why it's bad.  The cause of this badness, according to Albert, is that:


"Capitalism revolves around private ownership of the means of production, market allocation, and corporate divisions of labor.  It remunerates property, power, and to a limited extent contribution to output.  Class divisions arise from differences in property ownership, and differential access to empowered work versus subservient work.  Class divisions induce huge differences in decision-making influence and quality of life."

Albert argues for an alternate vision, which he calls Participatory Economics (or Parecon"), that reverses each of these paradigms.  So, for example, instead of private ownership of the means of production, each workplace would be owned in equal part by all citizens.  Top-down hierarchical decision-making structures would be replaced with bottom-up democratic institutions.  Instead of remunerating property, power, and output, Parecon would reward effort and sacrifice.  Instead of creating differential access to empowered work and decision-making influence, people would have balanced job-complexes that allow everyone to engage in some empowering work, and require everyone to engage in some grunt work.

Albert's enterprise is primarily to show why these alternative arrangements are in fact feasible, and could be administered fairly, without making us crazy, and without the frustrating or inefficient bureaucracy that people worry would engulf us if we ever attempted to replace our Dilbert-esque workplaces with something better.

But for the purposes of this essay, we do not need to establish that Albert has a better idea.  Only that Capitalism does in fact necessarily "sacrifice humanity's well-being on behalf of private profit." Albert's arguments toward this conclusion are strong.

Capitalism DOES reliably remunerate property, as any trust-funder knows, but not necessarily hard work, as any good janitor, day laborer knows, or even some school teachers, bus drivers, and airline pilots.

The class awareness around accumulated property is deeply engrained in our consciousness -- children's  stories frequently revolve around the contrasting fates of peasants and kings, princes and paupers. By adulthood, we are accustomed to separate-but-equal accommodations for the wealthy in nearly all public places -- airplanes, sports stadiums, freeways, and airport waiting lounges.  Nearly everywhere in modern society, the wealthy have created for themselves a separate shadow world of superior facilities in education, training, transportation, entertainment, athletics, information, and shopping.  We are even seeing fast-tracks for the wealthy in hospitals and airport security lines.

The end result of these superior accommodations is a self-perpetuating cycle that better prepares the wealthy and their progeny to successfully assume positions of influence and leadership, and thus further expand their wealth.  This cycle, of course, fatally undermines the alleged justification for the wealth disparities in the first place -- that they were somehow "earned" or "deserved," rather than received by inheritance, marriage, or appointment.

But Albert goes further, pointing out that "each of these modes of connecting actors imposes on the economy pressures that subvert solidarity, equity, diversity, and self-management."  In other words, the foundation of a just society is a culture of shared understanding that we are all in this together, that we have to depend on each other, that we have to help each other, and that we have to do these things while respecting our differences and granting each other the right to uniqueness and self-actualization, so that we can truly know freedom.

It's no small task to credibly define such institutions, although Albert may in fact have done it; give him a read.

But it is not hard to see that Capitalism institutionally ensures outcomes that are approximately as devastating as Albert describes, and approximately as devastating as we see in the real world after a few centuries' experiment with Capitalism.  Further, the precise features that define Capitalism -- private ownership of the means of production, hierarchical control of the workplace, remuneration of property and power -- can be pretty clearly shown to lead to class divisions, unequal opportunity, and huge discrepancies in decision-making opportunity and quality of life.

When the benefits of the system are concentrated in a very few, and most people are left dramatically worse off, it is indeed fair to say that humanity's well-being has been sacrificed on behalf of private profit.  And the system that causes it may be called by its true name, "Evil."

But if structural sociological analysis is not your thing, Joel Kovel takes a very different approach.

Joel-Kovel-Enemy-of-Nature
Joel Kovel
The Enemy of Nature: The End of Capitalism or the End of the World?
Kovel intends quite literally the harsh dilemma posed by his book's subtitle.  He spends considerable effort showing that our society will either end Capitalism or it will end us -- at least most of us, and life as we know it.

One of Kovel's more intriguing suggestions is that the western environmental movement is misguidedly attempting to reconcile Capitalism and Environmentalism (e.g., Clean Water Act, Emissions Cap-and-Trade) is misguided and cannot succeed.  Some of his best analysis focuses on the way Capitalism tends to shape the behavior of people and institutions, so that disasters like the explosion at Union Carbide's Bhopal chemical plant, which killed 16,000 and injured perhaps 500,000 more, should be understood as inevitable, rather than aberrational.  I recommend the entire book.

But I am going to extract just a piece of Kovel's argument, which directly considers the structural elements of capitalism that (in Kovels's view) ensure that capitalism will destroy the world, and why incremental reforms cannot adequately mitigate this dire outcome.  Obviously if this argument is true, then Michael Albert's notions of social justice hardly need be considered: we either jettison Capitalism, or we die -- or at least most of us and our descendants die.

Kovel focuses on three essential elements of Capitalism:


1. Capitalism tends to degrade the conditions of its own production.
2. Capitalism must expand without end in order to exist
3. Capital leads to a chaotic world-system, increasingly polarized between rich and poor, which cannot adequately address the ecological crisis.
The combination makes an ever-growing ecological crisis an iron necessity so long as capital rules, no matter what measures are taken to tidy up one corner or another.

Kovel's first point, that Capitalism tends to degrade the conditions of its own production, is intended to apply broadly to the intrinsic destructiveness of Capitalism.  Capitalism cannot function without profit, and so the capitalist firm is pressured to maximize the gap between cost and price.

Because competitive pressures tend to limit price, cost-cutting becomes a paramount concern of capitalists.  In theory, the cost-cutting is focused on efficient production of commodity inputs.  But in practice, the cost-pressure is extended to three non-commodity inputs: public infrastructure, people's labor, and nature itself.

Kovel argues that the pressure to squeeze as much as possible out of people, public infrastructure, and nature, while paying as little as possible, fouls the world by breaking people, disrupting ecosystems, and filling our society with externalized costs, such as pollution.

This degradation may be localized, such as in the Bhopal explosion that resulted from a blizzard of risky cost-cutting measures, or may be generalized, such as the overall global crisis resulting from global warming.  However, Kovel insists, neither scenario should be characterized as industrial accidents because they are inevitable outcomes of a system that generates profit by intentionally imposing hardships and creating risk.

The standard business school rejoinder is that all would be well were capitalist institutions merely required to internalize their costs, and so these tragedies reflect only market distortions, not systemic flaws.  And this brings us to Kovel's second principle: Capitalism Must Expand In Order to Exist.

Any firm that ceases to grow becomes a relatively less attractive investment, and capital is withdrawn and moved to faster growing (i.e., higher returning) firms.  CEOs who cannot increase the rate of profit are removed.  Any firm that fails to grow will simply disappear, its assets purchased by another.  No matter how large Microsoft or Wal-Mart become, their urge to grow further is unabated.

As a result, efforts to internalize costs are consistently defeated by firms clever enough to find a previously unnoticed opportunity to create an externality.  Or if protective regulations have closed one loophole, the unquenchable thirst for profits will result in political action to open a new loophole.

The pressure to do so is extraordinary, because for capital, it is literally a matter of life or death, and that is a defining element of Capitalism.  Although a natural person or a non-profit organization of any size can cover its costs and continue in business indefinitely, the objective of a capitalist organization is not the underlying work, but the extracted profit, so if the profit ceases to grow, capital is moved elsewhere, and the business begins to implode.  To resist this result, capitalist firms will seek to squeeze additional profits, even if it ends up crushing the life out of what otherwise was a well-functioning business.  It happens over and over.

Kovel is particularly critical of proposed capitalist-oriented solutions to the inevitable economic crisis posed by the quest for endless growth.  For example, Kovel argues against the Kyoto carbon-trading scheme:


"Kyoto proceeds on a two-tiered front: to create new markets for trading credits to pollute among the industrial powers, and to create...'Clean Development Mechanisms'...in the South that would offset carbon emissions by building projects, like tree farms, whose goal is the sequestration of carbon.  This immense superstructure...rests on two guiding assumptions: Give the corporate sector and the capitalist state the leading role in containing global warming; and do so by making the control of atmospheric carbon the site of new markets and new nodes of accumulation...

The defects of this mammoth blunder are myriad.  The scheme is inherently incoherent, for it entails innumerable points that simply cannot be measured or compared.  This is essentially because it tries to evade the point of a rational policy, which would be to leave the carbon in the ground in the first place -- in other words, one that would put limits on capital.  In doing so, Kyoto offers opportunities for swindling of all kinds.

Finally, and most revealing, the scheme will fail precisely insofar as it succeeds -- for the money that is to be made as a bribe to get corporate cooperation will of course not be placed in anybody's mattress.  It will enter the great circuits of capital

where it will be used to make more money -- perhaps by building golf courses, or expanding air travel, or going wherever the never-ending and cancerous pressure for growth leads.

In other words, Capitalism cannot be used to defeat itself, and if Capitalism is itself the cause of our most deadly problems, as Kovel demonstrates persuasively, then it will have to be replaced not reformed.

Capitalism and Democracy
Samuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis
Democracy and Capitalism:
Property, Community, and the Contradictions of Modern Social Thought

Samuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis' Democracy and Capitalism may be perhaps the most thorough analysis of the manner in which Capitalism opposes and even undermines Democracy, but it is a little dense for the non-academic reader.  I will attempt to tease out the basic argument.

Bowles and Gintis conclude that "no capitalist society may be called democratic in the straightforward sense of securing personal liberty and rendering the exercise of power socially accountable."  A true commitment to Democracy, they argue, requires "establishing a democratic social order and eliminating the central institutions of the capitalist economy."

The reason that Capitalism and Democracy are fatally opposed to each other is because Democracy entails the expansion of the rights of people, whereas Capitalism embodies the expansion of the rights of property, and these rights necessarily clash.

Liberal theory considered the state public, and the economy private.  Therefore, the design of the liberal state balances obligations to respect both democratic rights and property rights.  However, because the economy was considered a private sphere, corresponding democratic controls were not devised, and Capitalism was allowed free reign, instead of designing an economic democracy analogous to our political democracy.

Bowles and Gintis argue that this is a fundamental error in the design of our polity, because in fact economic decision-making has as much public impact as political decision-making, but Liberal theory cannot justify the lack of public input or democratic controls in the economy, given its justifications for both public input and democratic controls in the state.

Moreover, "Democracy [not only] promises the collective accountability of power," but it also promises "the ability of people to effectively carry out their individual and common projects unencumbered by arbitrary restraint."  Capitalism, or, the failure to apply democratic principles to the economy, allows all kinds of domination to occur, including who gets privileged opportunities to win or lose within the economic sphere, as well as significant distortions of democracy in the political sphere.  Or, as Bowles and Gintis put it,


"The rules of chess make it immaterial who plays with white and who with black; the rules of the game that make up society, however, generally confer systematic advantage on one group or another...The asymmetry of the games is the key to our understanding of domination."

But despite their excellent analysis of the specific forms of domination that occur in an undemocratic economy, their final blow is aimed at the nature of the market itself, which Liberal theory mostly understands as a mechanism for the exchange of goods and services.

Bowles and Gintis point out, however, that "exchanges are far more than a simple transfer of ownership.  They are complex social relationships"as illustrated by the kinds of exchanges that occur "between boss and worker, lender and borrower, or between buyers and sellers of different nations."  A market arena of self-interested and anonymous interaction might reduce not only the need for compassion, but also the sentiment itself.  In this respect, the economy produces people as well as things, and the capitalist economy produces people that are not ideally equipped with the democratic sentiments and capacities.

In all these ways (and more, do read the book), Capitalism fatally undermines Democracy, including Democracy's promise of the freedom to carry out our individual and common projects free from arbitrary restraint.  To the extent that Democracy is just and good, Bowles and Gintis conclude, Capitalism is the opposite.

Michael Moore Capitalism Movie Poster
Michael Moore
Capitalism: A Love Story
The movie's website claims that all his films revolve around just two questions: Who are we, and why do we behave the way that we do?

In film after film, Moore's answer to the first question is that we are just normal people -- friends, neighbors, people who work hard, people modestly trying to make their way in the world.  When Moore looks at America, he does not see celebrities, politicians, or athletes -- he just sees people.  And each of his movies introduces us to a new cast and their stories.

As for the second question, why do we behave the way that we do, Moore never finds a satisfying answer.  Why do we shut down local economies?  In Roger and Me, he couldn't get an answer.  In Bowling for Columbine, he wondered why do we immerse ourselves in guns, violently endangering ourselves and our children -- especially when other societies seem to successfully limit the prevalence of both guns and violence?

Fahrenheit 911 explored the corruption of our political system, and Sicko of our medical system.  Both films concluded that we had submitted ourselves to regimes that made no sense, at least compared with the alternatives.

Finally, in Capitalism: A Love Story, Moore addressed Capitalism itself, revealing it as the moving force behind corruption of judges, foreclosures, heartless evictions, underpaid-and-overworked airline pilots, and massive, institutionalized theft.  Juxtaposed against this, Moore shows that the basic principles of Capitalism are not consistent with moral and religious codes, and he presented the possibility of worker-owned enterprises as an alternative.

Essentially, Moore asked whether, given the extraordinary weight of evidence that Capitalism is harmful, and the apparent availability of alternatives, why we should tolerate it?  In an interview with Naomi Klein, Moore elaborated his argument:


"Capitalism is the legalization [of] greed.  Greed has been with human beings forever. We have a number of things in our species that you would call the dark side, and greed is one of them. If you don't put certain structures in place or restrictions on those parts of our being that come from that dark place, then it gets out of control. Capitalism does the opposite of that. It not only doesn't really put any structure or restriction on it. It encourages it, it rewards it."

Summary

So from Albert's standpoint, the fundamental principles of Capitalism systematically degrade the conditions of social interaction, thus dividing us from one another, impoverishing us, and eventually sacrificing our collective well-being for the benefit of the few.

For Kovel, Capitalism will inevitably consume all of nature and the ecosystems that we depend on to survive. Thus, if we were to exercise what Thomas Hobbes would have characterized as our right and our duty to survive, then destroying Capitalism before it destroys us is an imperative.

Bowles and Gintis find in Democracy and the self-actualization of people the ultimate objective of our creating a society together, and Capitalism is undermines this fundamental social obligation.

For Moore, Capitalism destroys that which we love, and is opposed to our most basic moral principles.

All conclude, explicitly, that Capitalism is harmful, destructive, unjustified, and must be replaced.  Moore calls it "evil," and the others are similarly unequivocal in their denunciation.

Objections

The objections I cited originally are not as well-developed as the critiques I then attempted to summarize.  Indeed, Michael Moore mentioned in his interview that those taken aback by his conclusion frequently ask, "What's wrong with making money?  Why can't I open a shoe store?"

This objection seems to capture well the common concern -- If Capitalism is Evil, then how can we engage in economic activity?  What is allowed instead?  Is it okay to do honest work and be able to buy things I want in return?

These very practical questions do not express any kind of disagreement with the logic of the arguments I have summarized, nor any disagreement with the underlying premises of the argument.  Compare these additional objections noted at the beginning:


"Capitalism may be bad, but the alternatives are worse," and "Capitalism has some negative effects, but the overall benefits of capitalism would be positive if we only protected against its harsh aspects," and "Replacing capitalism would eliminate freedoms, so we might not be better off, and we could be much worse off."

The focus is consistently on whether better alternatives exist, and do those alternatives have unknown risks, and what is the likelihood that we could successfully transition?

These are fair questions to which we must now turn.  We are lucky to have a rich literature exploring the possibilities, and enough clarity that we could begin to chart our course should we summon the courage to change. These will be the subjects of future essays.

Conclusion

Let us close this topic then, with a clear commitment not to reforming Capitalism or rationalizing Capitalism, or making Capitalism better or kinder, but instead to replacing it, and eliminating it, because the facts and the logic, and the weight of the argument demonstrate, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Capitalism is Evil.

Capitalism Tower Cartoon

(We have actually known this for a long time)

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This is Jay's post from Right of Assembly, our blog (0.00 / 0)
He's my blog partner. I didn't write this. Jay did.

Miep


however (0.00 / 0)
I will note that his first draft was really good, and this one?'

Now you have it. Wow!

Miep


[ Parent ]
And this is bad how exactly mipmop? (4.00 / 1)
Capitalism necessarily will result in the destruction of our environment, nature generally, and eventually the planet

jesus this is the best news I've heard all weeklong! hip hip hooray! The end is nigh!

Bring on the total destruction.
Bring it on now!
Bring on the end of the whirled!

Go mop the goddamn floor with your head mipmop!

clean it oop!

mop the flo with your head mipmop
mop the flo with your head mipmop

mop the flo mop the flo
it's time to mop the flo mipmop!

turn her oopside down yo! so she can mop the gd flo!

BTW dripdrop - itz capitalism which led to the creation of the goddamn computer on which you're communicating your idiotic ideas abboot capitalism.

itz capitalsim led 2 the invention oov movie cameras and film which led to MM's motiopn picture aboot capitalm, tho I favor soom regulations and all that jazz. BTW - eye've seen MM dining in high falutin fancy Chinese restaurants in NYC.... How is that poosible? Oh, cuz heez a gd capitalist! The guy ain't eatin' rat meat n' rice with the Viet Cong mipmop!

its capitalsim which grants you the time and luxury to spout off against capitalism.

he wondered why do we immerse ourselves in guns, violently endangering ourselves and our children

eye don't immerse myself in goddamn guns mop


MipMop thinks volume equals insight (0.00 / 0)
Her mediocre prose at DKos got her nowhere. Now she's found the soapblox off-shoots and is jumping in. She doesn't think, however, that we should talk about other blogs. She calls it gossip. The spin is being put out that FSZ doesn't delete or ban. Can anyone tell me what rule I broke to get banned by FSZ? At least when you and Donkeytale got banned for the alleged shadowthief threats, there was a fake story behind it. I got banned for no reason. What was that, I think, around April. I went to MLW, then people followed there to make sure to push my buttons and get me banned. I went to DFQ, and for a time was ok with that. Donk was there and we had some normal give and take. Then the trolls followed me there. Now MipMop has shown up to make sure FSZ remains part and parcel of the overall herd. Mike K., now his recent arrival has been most humorous. The flip-flop-flip. He was for the lie that ousted you and Donk, then he admitted he was wrong. Now he can't even remember any of it. Rioticity. And now we have Ormond preaching that Jack doesn't delete or ban. There's some tune that came out, by that chick who likes to make love to the mirror. Lies, Lies, tell me sweet little lies. Myself, I'd rather hear Like a Gypsy. Better melody, though I have no clue what the lyrics meant.

http://davefromqueens2.blogspo...
http://allaircraftarenotinvolv...


[ Parent ]
I have, during my blogging career (4.00 / 1)
run across a lot of crappy writers, and a lot of talented writers who needed polish.

I have never once sunk so low as to tell someone who meant well that s/he was a crappy writer.

Since you obviously want Pffugee Camp all to yourself, have at it. I'm sure you're a very important person, and infinitely superior to everybody. I would not dream of interfering with your ongoing importance.

Miep


[ Parent ]
Please don't. (4.00 / 4)
This is kind of the rough part of the blogging neighborhood.

There are people who have good points about what has happened in the past at fsz. As far as I know, you were not part of that but are bearing the brunt of current anger at what actually did happen there.

I hope you continue to post here and take the criticism with a good grace. I honestly don't think anyone here means you ill - but, well - many here have been treated the way you are being treated here now. Can you truly blame them their anger while justifying yours?

I hope you'll stay. You have interesting things to say and say them uniquely. Would you really give up your own point of view so easily? I hope not.

I'm rootin' for ya, Miep.

Stay.


[ Parent ]
this kind of shows (4.33 / 3)
how weak FSZ is now. Because if this is all it takes for Miep to bail from here, then she never would've lasted a week in the beginning at FSZ when it had it's integrity intact. When it was what it had advertised itself to be before the rules were flaunted and games were played, manufacturing reasons to ban people and delete their content.

Having said that, I do feel a small twinge of pity for Miep, as obviously she's walked into this place unaware of the territory and very obviously unaware of FSZ's history and original origins.

I agree with you that she has interesting things to say and a unique way of saying them. I too would hope she dons her thicker skin and continues to post here :o)

"May we live long and die out"


[ Parent ]
thank you vox (3.00 / 1)
My blogger rules:

Piss on me all you want. I'll piss back all I want.

Don't out anybody, don't get too stalky about anybody, or about death threats. No child porn.

That goes for my and Jay's blog too (rightofassembly.com)

Far as I'm concerned at least. I think he's pretty much with me on this.

I only got into GBCW here because I had not been around long and all of a sudden I had these bloggers writing nasty comments at me, when I had not done anything to attack anyone.

I do understand that there is some history between PFF and FSZ. I did not know that when I started posting here. I knew FSZ had some issue with somebodies but I did not know it was with any somebodies who especially resided here. I ddin't even KNOW about here then.

I was looking for another soapblox blog full of people to talk to, and blues on FSZ told me he posted here. That was after Jay and I started up our own soapblox blog and I realized what a wealth of soapblox blogs were available.

So I stumbled into Pff. And then I got whacked.

And now I've come back. But what I want to say over and over again is that it's okay to tell a blogger who really cares about the world, that he or she is totally wrong about something, but that it is deeply wrong to call him or her a mediocre writer and I will fight that to the end of my days and that means you too socrates you mean person.

eom.


[ Parent ]
I disagree with vox in that (4.00 / 2)
I seriously doubt that the reaction you're seeing has anything to do with anyone's "anger". There is no anger. Disgust and an aversion to lying? Yeah, that fits better.

You won't get far arguing about why you shouldn't be "whacked" by anyone here. There are one, two, maybe three here, who will attack for no meaningful reason at all. No one will defend the why of it. But neither will anyone insist that those attacks be stopped. Not that you're asking anyone to do that for you.

The idea is that you have to weather the bad with the good, and there's lots of good here if someone is willing to take the time to look and listen. Few do, though. I hope you're an exception, because your insights come from an interesting angle and I'm interested in reading them.

I disagree with anyone who says you're not a good writer.

"May we live long and die out"


[ Parent ]
Actually, I think we agree. (4.00 / 1)
You just put it better than I did.

Ya meanie.

:o)


[ Parent ]
I put it better... (4.00 / 1)
than you did? Perhaps you'll forgive me if I take that as a compliment?!

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
Well, you certainly may (0.00 / 0)
if you want! But I offered it more as the truth... since it was true.

I'm not a very good blogger, and I know it. Most of my diaries are pretty lame; a few have been really bad, and I've had maybe two diaries I've been genuinely happy to have written. My comment writing is pretty stilted a lot of the time, though I don't mean it to be. It's just that blogging can be pretty fun, and I like the people (or characters I suppose in some cases) I meet. I just like learning about different ideas and points of view.

Anyway, thanks for supporting Miep. She really adds something to the conversation, and as much as I like our noom and the doppelgangers (a good name for a band even?), I really think Miep got a raw deal in the intro department. Your post did a great job capturing the general sitegeist, as far as I'm concerned.


[ Parent ]
I find your work generally excellent, and I think stilted is a poor description. (4.00 / 1)

Careful and considerate would be my choices, though I sometimes disagree with the content.

Never with the style.


[ Parent ]
A genuine thank you, (0.00 / 0)
Mr. O.

And for all that comes below your subject line, a mutual regard.

Stilted might be a poor description, but let's just say if anyone should level it at me, it would not be a surprise.

If I mean what I say, however written, I've done what I can. I believe the same of you, Mr. O, however much I disagree with you. And oh! how often I disagree!

May it be so as often as necessary!

... whatever that means.

Sincerest regards,


[ Parent ]
vox insana (4.00 / 2)
eye like how you're finger pointing at me, the jew.  even you eh, vox monsterana!

nevermind mipmop liked the name mipmop. never mind that when I called her a mop it was merely scream of consciousness vamping, nuttin' poisonal, no, when someone needz blaming hunt down the jew! eben you the fake quaker amongus!

vox lunaticana, twas anutter poster with whom mip mop had mooch more of a beeferoni. boot do you mention said poster? hell no vox liarana! you go fer the easy target.

nevermind your laughable pretense at fairness , evenhandedness, listening to all sides, when it comes to accusing a jew, you go for the jugular. you go for the kill, you go for the dagger plunged into the heart and throat. crucify the jew. it's in yer blood eye know. history has pooot the concept into the DNA of billions of barely humans vox bullshittana.

eye reject your claim. eye reject your fake quakerism. eye reject your accusing finger.

go pray over it vox fake-ana, go repent! repent eye say for your blaspheming! repent. 50 lashes for vox madmanna!


[ Parent ]
Okay, (4.00 / 1)
thanks.

Good to see you in good form!

No, the Welcome Wagon wasn't just you. Sorry if I implied it was. Forgive me if I find your distinctive style a little more memorable. I won't mention you again if it hurts your feelings.

Good stuff, though. I kinda like vox madmanna.


[ Parent ]
god, this is so tiresome (0.00 / 0)
I didn't do anything here that involved being disgusting, and I care about avoiding lying.

Whack away. I'm used to it. I find it funny, most of the time, more and more. But I still think it's a fucking waste of time.

I would never request such attacks be stopped.

But there are a lot of blogs around. And this one may be worth my while. Maybe if Cerberus Socrates chills, I can be happy here. I know, I know; must haze new uzers! They are all guilty until proven innocent.

But I'm too old to waste my time hanging around a blog where people keep trying to fuck with my head. You are not all that powerful, you individual blogs and members. There is no point to trying to push it.

The tsunami is coming in, has been for some time. What is our collective goal? To impress upon each other who is the most superior?

Or to get things done?


[ Parent ]
there is no "God", Miep (0.00 / 0)
That's lesson 1.

The rest? Stay, go, meander, whatever.

It wasn't my intention to leave the impression that I felt your participation here or not was worth anything more than one or two descriptive lines about this blog's culture.

But when you base your test of a blog's worthiness on whether or not any one member is sufficiently chilled to your preferred temperature, you're probably not PFF material to begin with.

That's lesson 2.


"May we live long and die out"


[ Parent ]
Don't sweat it (3.00 / 1)
I am superior to everybody else, but not infinitely. This place has a locker room atmosphere, and you shouldn't take any of it personally.

I'm just saying there is something to the idea of a backstory. This forum is one which grew out of the angst generated by DKos' vigilante fakeleft moderating system. Have you heard of Maryscott O'Connor of MyLeftWing? She wasn't emotionally able to become the admin for #1 forum on the net. She made a lot of mistakes, the primary one being the banning of Francis Holland.

Then this guy Peeder started a place called the Political Flesh Feast. He closed shop. Then FSZ was created. I personally didn't show up until a bit into 2009. Basically the admin there totally botched the fundamental essence of what Peeder had created. He made an incredible amount of mistakes. Like pranks. The key players he shit on were Davefromqueens, then noom, donkeytale, and Eric S. Then like in April or so 2009, not sure the exact dates, he started ripping into myself and DavidByron. I was banned without breaking one of his few rules. That's when this place was formed. [/a soft kissie on Laura's cheek or hand if that's more gentlemanly]

Don't leave, because of me. I am not even that big a player here, nor am I Mr. Popular. But these guys allow me to post whatever I want to as long as I don't break one of the few rules.

I'm just saying, no one's forcing you to figure out the backstory. And I will try to cut you slack and not razz you anymore. But I will stand up for my knowing it is fact that DKos, MLW, and FSZ stink bad. We are the kings of meta. The royal we here, despite our cantankerous relationships, are fairly much on the same page about the evolution of the soapblox world. Seeing that DKos used to be the #1 political blog in the country, you may want to take that into consideration why I reacted to you the way I did. Did you know that Markos Moulitsas Zuniga went all the way to the end of a CIA interview process and almost signed on to be a clandestine spy? That means he might have actually worked for them. A few years back he said the CIA is a liberal institution with its heart in the right place. Francis Holland did a lot of work to expose that fraud. Mr. Storming the Gates is actually Mr. Gatekeeper. One of the main reasons Peeder started the original PFF was because Francis was banned by Maryscott. Just saying.  

http://davefromqueens2.blogspo...
http://allaircraftarenotinvolv...


[ Parent ]
thank you (4.00 / 1)
for behaving like an adult with regards to this comment.

Much of what you've written about as to blogging history, is familiar to me.

I don't have a problem with your razzing me. What I have a problem with is your having fits because I posted some pieces I cared about, just to try to let people know who I am.

I assure you, I don't have tons of that on hand.

And you still suck for calling me a mediocre writer. Bite me. I see no evidence that you write better than I do. And I am much kinder than you are.

I already knew about much of the backstory. What I don't know at this time, is why you thought it would help to call me a mediocre writer. You lost street cred with me for that.

I'm not one to go around endlessly trying to get people to pass personal tests. But first impressions matter.

It was obvious to me up front that you could write.

I'd never tell anyone that you were a mediocre writer.

But I might well tell people that you're mean, insecure, manipulative and dishonest.

Miep


[ Parent ]
Using a complex cognitive scientifical algorithm thingamabob (4.00 / 3)
the botmost has determined that you have described the character of socrates in four words more quickly, more accurately, and more succinctly than anyone else the botmost has encountered.  

The botmost has determined that the reason for the incidents at FSZ was due to certain posters who exhibit similar behavior at many websites deliberately pushing the limits of the very few posting restrictions that were set up there.  The botmost would take any pronouncements about other websites from posters at the pffugeecamp with large quantities of sodium base compounds, unless said pronouncements come from the director of the pffugeecamp herself.


[ Parent ]
That's not bad, but hormone compost was better. (4.00 / 1)
Break up the paragraphs a little.

[ Parent ]
The botmost will work on it. (0.00 / 0)
The algorithm of the botmost bot is constantly refined per the instructions of its creator, the real ormond otvos.

[ Parent ]
Ormond Otvos is a bot of vox bandana, who has yet to appear... (3.67 / 3)
Please resubmit your program corrections at the tone.

Meep!


[ Parent ]
thank you (0.00 / 0)
I like Free Speech Zone. I like Jack.

That doesn't mean I can't like anybody who doesn't post there. I like tons of people who don't post there.

I'd rather not spend my time inventing superlative insults in order to address them publicly at people who are being assholes. Really.

But I can, if I have to. I stopped being scared a long time ago.

Hence, "BITE ME!"

And yeah, I think Laura is cool.

Miep


[ Parent ]
eye goota say (0.00 / 0)
this shite iz mind bending ....

Mike K., now his recent arrival has been most humorous. The flip-flop-flip. He was for the lie that ousted you and Donk, then he admitted he was wrong. Now he can't even remember any of it. Rioticity.

eye'm out 4 soom NYC pizza yp. the best gd pizza on planet earf !


[ Parent ]
I don't know about that, noomagoo (3.00 / 1)
there's a couple of brothers, Sicilians, who've set up shop out here in Sound Beach who make the best gd pizza in the fuggin solar system. Yeah! That's bigger than the planet, bro!

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
really? (4.00 / 1)
whutz the name of da joint?

eye like the fact that two sicilian brudders are roonin it. I kin smell the pies alreadee! Mebbe they got soom authentic original recipe for the sauce or wtf? or maybe they use the right oven? the right dough? what's their secret?


[ Parent ]
their secret is... (0.00 / 0)
that no one knows that they're really two Swedish dudes from Dubuque, Iowa!

The name of the place is Sal Anthonys. One of the brothers is named Carlo, and the other one isn't Sal or Anthony :o)

Really though, they're two paisans who bought it and kept the original name. I've sampled some amazing Italian food in my time, but these guys...it's just too good to even desribe. Everything is made in house. All the breads, deserts, the works. I think they even grow their own GD pepperoni :o) I dont know what the secret is with the crust and the bread, man, but it's like at least 10 or 17 times better than anything I've ever had.

The only problem is every time (almost every day cuz it's across the street from my job) I walk (gettin harder to make that walk though since the fuggers made me gain about 15 lbs) in there they have their Italian game shows and soap operas on the tv. I thought the Telemundo stuff was whack :o)

I don't know why the feck they're buried away out of sight in Sound Beach, when they ought to be in the Theater District or some shit.  

"May we live long and die out"


[ Parent ]
You need a mixture of both free market and controlled economy (0.00 / 0)
It's that simple. This forum is turning into the resurrection of Huey Long's White Trash Party. Right woos left marches on.

http://davefromqueens2.blogspo...
http://allaircraftarenotinvolv...


[ Parent ]
Failure to define what capitalism(s) mean(s) (5.00 / 1)
You'd think that would be the first thing a writer of such an otherwise hard-working essay like this would do.

The discussion of the Bowles/Gintis book was interesting. For example, why "fatally opposed" and not just "opposed"? And does economic democracy mean "no capitalism," because that what is implied in paragraphs 2 to 4 below?

The reason that Capitalism and Democracy are fatally opposed to each other is because Democracy entails the expansion of the rights of people, whereas Capitalism embodies the expansion of the rights of property, and these rights necessarily clash.

Liberal theory considered the state public, and the economy private.  Therefore, the design of the liberal state balances obligations to respect both democratic rights and property rights.  However, because the economy was considered a private sphere, corresponding democratic controls were not devised, and Capitalism was allowed free reign, instead of designing an economic democracy analogous to our political democracy.

Bowles and Gintis argue that this is a fundamental error in the design of our polity, because in fact economic decision-making has as much public impact as political decision-making, but Liberal theory cannot justify the lack of public input or democratic controls in the economy, given its justifications for both public input and democratic controls in the state.

Moreover, "Democracy [not only] promises the collective accountability of power," but it also promises "the ability of people to effectively carry out their individual and common projects unencumbered by arbitrary restraint."  Capitalism, or, the failure to apply democratic principles to the economy, allows all kinds of domination to occur, including who gets privileged opportunities to win or lose within the economic sphere, as well as significant distortions of democracy in the political sphere.

Anyway, people are too rigid in how they think of economic entities. The options could be ranged across a three-dimension array with "internal democracy," "external democracy," and "capitalist" as the nodes. And then organizations could choose to be a mix of any point along or within that triangle for the various distinct functions of an economic entity. Which of all those would qualify as capitalist and non-capitalist, I don't know.

There's never an effort to define the basic terms, and never an awareness of how complex (or simple) an authentic democracy might want its various different economic entities and functions to be.

All in all, the basic goal of ridding our media and political systems of the influence of private wealth would seem to me to generate the democracy that could and would then decide how to design the economy and its institutions and 'corporations' for the best popular purposes. I bet that true democracy wouldn't get bogged down by "We can't do that! Don't you know capitalism IS EVIL!?!" They'd probably just say, depending on the narrow real topic at hand, "SO the FUCK WHAT, it seems to work well for farmer's markets, at least better than the non-evil alternatives, so we the people'll keep it for that."

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep


Pyramid of Capatilist System (0.00 / 0)
Note that the soldiers are the enemy ("We shoot at you").  They get a higher status on the bloody pyramid than the chattering classes.  Also note that the soldiers are armed with two gattling guns, not two cannon.  ie anti-personel weapons, not weapons for fighting wars.  There is no element or hint that the soldiers are "heroes" or that they are somehow really on the side of the people.  Exactly the opposite is stated.

The picture is from the USA, 1911.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.


Yes. Define capitalism. (4.00 / 1)

Here's a hint: work and accumulate excess value you don't need to continue working. Use that accumulated value to increase your efficiency. That accumulated value is capital, and the process is capitalism. It's dangerously exponential in human hands.

Use your democracy to elect leaders who know how to control the energies of the capitalist process. That's called representative government, and it's subject to all the human frailties of exceeding the Dunbar Limit.


There IS no conflict between democracy and capitalism. (0.00 / 0)

There's a conflict between the reality of human social structure capacity and the size we're trying to run it at.

We seem to have exceeded some limit about size of society.

We need new brains.

Thus eugenics.


[ Parent ]
There IS no conflict between hens and foxes. (5.00 / 1)


"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

[ Parent ]
A rather inane, what, metaphor, analogy, mind fart? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Oh, get over it. (3.00 / 2)
God is evil.  (That's why we had to invent the Devil).

think about kindness (0.00 / 0)
y'all.

Maybe you ran out of that a long time ago.

What is this blog about? Meanness?

Is that what you all think is good?


Mean? (4.00 / 1)
You haven't met Donkeytale, I gather.

I hope you stay though.  


[ Parent ]
Laura, can you help me out? (0.00 / 0)
Is sid's buddy banned from pffugeecamp?

[ Parent ]
No. Of course not. (3.00 / 1)
But why do you ask?

[ Parent ]
Because (0.00 / 0)
someone who may be he at mlw seemed to think that he was banned here. I questioned whether that was indeed true and thought the best way to find out would be the most direct way. So I asked.

I do think there were some accusations that flew back and forth among posters recently, but I did not think that there had been a banning.

Thank you.

And for the record to any and all who might be concerned and reading: No, I do not condone banning or bullying. Or haranguing, for that matter, which could be seen as a form of bullying.


[ Parent ]
Well done (3.00 / 1)
Claiming not to condone bullying and haranguing while coming to the aid of the ones who bully and harangue.  Genius.  We should have thought of that ourselves.

If you repeat it enough someone besides yourself might actually believe it.  And then the game can continue.  


[ Parent ]
Excellent point. (0.00 / 0)
So, since you have been following this perhaps more closely than I:

What exactly is your position?


[ Parent ]
No need to pretend with us. (3.00 / 1)
And very nicely done once again.  A little false humility with just a hint of smarminess.  Bravo.  You haven't lost your touch.

[ Parent ]
Thank you. (5.00 / 1)
I would point out that it is of course not at all contradictory to condemn bullying and haranguing while coming to the aid of those who act in those ways. In fact, if one commits to the premise of a free speech zone, such an occurrence would appear to be inevitable.

But enough about my opinion:

What is your feeling about an arena for free speech? Is advocacy for such a concept subject to abandonment when the results are less than ideal?

Or are you perhaps more interested in exploring an oh-so-subtle process of attempted bullying and harangue?


[ Parent ]
Brilliant (4.00 / 1)
Questioning your adversary in an attempt to reduce suspicion of yourself and cause them to doubt themselves. Just like the Murphy scam where the conman asks the mark if they can be trusted right before ripping them off.  A classic.

We were wondering, do you still have to practice this routine or does it just sort of flow naturally now?


[ Parent ]
I have no desire for you to doubt yourself. (2.00 / 1)
I am interested in your opinions on the questions I asked. I have demonstrated, time and again, my own convictions on the matter. Here, once again, I have pointed them out. One can support the principle of free speech without supporting all the resulting content or its delivery.

I will ask you no further questions at this point, since it appears to irritate you. Please feel free to write anything further you might care to. And, even as I will probably disagree with what you say, I will fully support your right to do so.


[ Parent ]
We noticed you demonstrating your convictions (3.00 / 1)
about certain people supposedly being banned from certain websites by heading off to the My Left Wing website where the very same certain people had also been banned on numerous occasions.

It's really quite an act you all have going.  The guys at the government office really get a charge out of it.  We have recommended your tactics to our superiors.  


[ Parent ]
I don't post at MLW (5.00 / 1)
because of its free speech policies. At such sites, I tend to ask for reinstatement or at least reconsideration of any banned. I like the fact that there is at least one site that tries as best it can to allow free speech. That doesn't mean I am restricted to posting only at sites like that. That would unfortunately be an extremely circumscribed space. I reserve the right to post where I wish and would expect no less for others.

If, however, a site makes claims to be a free speech site and then behaves in a manner counter to that principle, I would leave that site, perhaps after making protest or asking for changes or giving second chances or even all of the above. It happens. They may continue to be perfectly good blogs, but their purpose will have changed.


[ Parent ]
In order for a website (0.00 / 0)
to get the vox humana seal of approval it must live up to the name on its header.  We see.

You have noticed I'm sure that My Left Wing has a prominent administrator who supports the right wing Israeli government and allows others with right wing attitudes to contribute on a regular basis.

You have also surely noticed the Pffugee Camp accepts contributions from those who were not even aware of the existence of the Political Flesh Feast website until after it had disappeared.

We proffer the suggestion that the actual criteria used in your decision making is whether a website agrees to coddle eric s or not since you raised the alarm here at the merest hint he may have been somehow mistreated by this website's proprietor.

This site's proprietor is intelligent enough not to indulge eric s in his games.  

You evidently are not.


[ Parent ]
Nope. (0.00 / 0)
Not at all close. Not what I think. Not what I've said. Not what I've done. Perhaps what you've seen... I don't know.

Proffer away. My discussions here and with Eric S of late would seem to show the inaccuracy of your idea, though, I think.

Sorry.


[ Parent ]
Oh. Sure. Just read MLW. (5.00 / 1)
Vox...regardless of 'the facts', Eric plays these games for fun. Remember his self-induced banning at fsz? He freaked Jack out by posting a bestiality diary the same day as a diary which included a video of his kids. He did the same thing to me, but with a video of a young foreign stripper girl. At my site he didn't use a sockpuppet for the 'scandalmaker', like he did at at fsz. But then again he didn't use 'his good name' Eric S here, either. As for the Youtube thing, I really don't care what he thinks. It's obvious he set himself up to be martyred. I didn't 'report him', or post his real name. Though anyone could have found it from his other Youtube account which he regularly posts from using the same username. If he were really technologically naive this story might mean something, but he's not. And it's increasingly weird to me that you're still sympathetic to this game he plays, but whatever...I guess.

'Pederasty' GMAFB. And there's Karma with his 'ooo, ahhh, shocking what depths these antisemitic fuckers will sink to'. Please.

Don't you see it's all a huge game to them?


[ Parent ]
In case it's still unclear... (4.00 / 3)
I don't ban. And apparently it bothers some to no end.

[ Parent ]
I think (0.00 / 0)
I see some things and don't see some things... pretty much like each of us.

And I think the best way to learn what one wants to know is to ask.

I'm sorry you find it increasingly weird that I am sympathetic to the "game he plays." Surely you can see here (and even there) that I am asking questions in that regard. I note that up to this point I have received no definitive claim that sid's buddy has indeed been banned. Nevertheless, I do think we each deserve to be heard by someone. Yes, I do.

I know it is possible that an administrator can ban an account and nobody would be the wiser. I thought it best in this instance to get the word directly from the person who would know.

I asked. You answered.

There is a lot here I couldn't verify if I wanted. I never watched the original video, and apparently much of the rest of what happened has been deleted or disappeared.

I take you at your word because I have no reason to do otherwise. I ask sid's buddy to post here again should he so desire. And I beg each of your indulgence as I try to figure out what is going on.

And I don't mean this post to cast aspersions on anyone. I'm not very good at this sort of thing. I learn best by asking.

Thanks again.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, (3.00 / 1)
I thought you were around when this was all going on. The pertinent information is still there. The video was merely a prop. It doesn't mater what was or wasn't on the video. If you look at his posts you can see he is yearning to be banned, anyway anyhow. Writing entire diaries about it. Silly, really silly. So, he did his tried and true victimhood schtick. It didn't work. I wouldn't be surprised if he reported his own Youtube video, for extra spiciness. The timeline hints at this. He had time to take screenshots of the 'slanderous' comments page before the video was removed. The Youtube account wasn't his main account, he created it just to post this video.

Anyway why don't you ask HIM why he removed the screenshots? I suspect the reason he removed them, and the reason he claims to be banned is that the whole thing's just too hackneyed and ridiculous to behold.

But carry on, trying to 'figure it out'. I'm been done wit it.


[ Parent ]
Okay. I understand. (0.00 / 0)
My next questions will go to him, next time I "see him."

Really, Laura. I appreciate your answers. I thought it best to ask and you answered... as I thought you would.


[ Parent ]
I hear about donkeytale on FSZ a lot (0.00 / 0)
but I did not come over here to poach. I just heard from blues that he posted here. I had no idea there was all this internecine stuff going on. I mean, I knew FSZ had problems with somebody, but I had no idea it was people from here.

I'm not looking for no wars, Laura. Hell, I post on FSZ and DK too; I don't think that's all that easy to do if you're looking for wars.


[ Parent ]
hi (3.00 / 1)
I haven't been around for a week or so. I'll just settle for your helpful and simple comment, if that works for y'all?

fwiw, i have no socks. I am Miep everywhere. I was mieprowan at dk but I recently abandoned that and now I am Miep there too.

Oh, tecato gusano is my sock at right of assembly, but that's just kind of a fun thing. Kind of inspired by giblets at fafblog. I do understand that giblets may actually be a discrete person at fafblog, though I doubt it.

Otherwise, no socks. That would be too complicated for me. I'm confused enough as it is. I really don't need to work on engaging in enthusiastic emphasis of that stuff, guys?

I'm just sayin'

Hope we can get back to what passes for our regular programming here, there and everywhere, now.

Best to all of you,

Miep


[ Parent ]
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