Obama is a President of Terror and War, not Peace

FDL Pixie, jane Hamsher is trying to brow beat her readers into supporting a useless public option (0.00 / 0)

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.c...

That seems to be the take home from this so far and I am sad to say it but there it is.  Her logical argument is bizarrely awful although its certainly the same awful argument she's made for the last few weeks since just before I was banned.  I pointed out the problems with it clearly when I was there but I was heavily censored and she never replied.  I'm reading through the comments there where she is active but I doubt she will respond to the obvious criticism of her case.

Glad to see many people at least disagreeing with her about the need to back the corporate bailout and massively regressive tax hike bill.


"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 17:04:36 PM CST

Flawed Health Reform Could Hurt Dems in 2010 (0.00 / 0)

Part 1:
http://inthesetimes.com/workin...

Part 2:
http://inthesetimes.com/workin...

Both strategically and as pure wonkish 'not solving the problem you set out to solve', the health care plan is not smart for the Democrats. But, for Obama, well, he has no choice, cuz this crap will be what he fights 2010 and 2012 out on. Even though little of the plan will be in force then, since he knows the people who have to deal with the new mandatory or else provisions will be damned pissed off at him.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 17:40:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is what I posted over there: (0.00 / 0)

Flawed Health Reform Could Hurt Dems in 2010
Part 1:
http://inthesetimes.com/workin...
Part 2:
http://inthesetimes.com/workin...

Read this stuff and weep or resist. The problems, more or less described in Roger Bybee's all-caps subtitles:

WHY THE DELAY? (2014?)

MANDATORY PURCHASE OF UNRELIABLE PRIVATE INSURANCE ("Private health insurance is a defective product. We know from our studies of bankruptcy that the majority of Americans who face medical bankruptcy start their illness with private health insurance but are bankrupted anyway by gaps in coverage, like co-payments, deductibles and uncovered services," argues Dr. Steffie Woolhandler of Harvard Medical School

AFFORDABLE PREMIUMS? (For example, the Washington Post reported that a family of four earning $54,000 would pay premiums of $5,300. But before the family would derive any benefits from those premiums, they would have to pay a $5,000 deductible. In other words, the family would be exposed to
$10,300 in annual health costs.)

GIVEAWAYS TO BIG PHARMA

PATHETIC, PUNY PUBLIC OPTION

FREEZING INEQUITIES INTO PLACE (Apparently no longer feeling it necessary to hide America's shameful secret, the Democratic plans openly create "basic," "enhanced," "premium," and "premium-plus" levels of benefits.)

Both strategically and as pure wonkish 'not solving the problem you set out to solve', the health care plan is not smart for the Democrats. But, for Obama, well, he has no choice, cuz this crap will be what he fights 2010 and 2012 out on. Even though little of the plan will be in force then, since he knows the people who have to deal with the new mandatory or else provisions will be damned pissed off at him.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 17:46:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yeah yeah yeh (0.00 / 0)

the bill is crap but we've known that since forever.  I am more interested in trying to figure out FDL and Jane Hamsher.  She appeared to be and I guess it's true maybe, very prickly about her part in this, and I hoped that explained her poor behaviour but its gone on too long, too far.

Now it's just enemy action pure and simple.  those arguing against her position are badly hampered by the requirement that they praise her for doing a great job etc etc etc.  It helps that she's a cute girl there of course.  So they are a bit shafted.  Were I currently posting there I would try to give her the benefit of the doubt too, but really there is none and being banned is part of that.

Throughout that one discussion she was saying "Nobody's saying this" and I was saying "I bloody well am saying it" but someone -- in all likelihood her -- was censoring my comments.  I mean why would they bother to have both her and someone else monitoring the thread closely?  If that's the case she was quite clearly deceptive in her comments.

Someone needs to call her out as she appears to be lying to her audience at this point.  But whoever does so will be banned and attacked by the sycophants at FDL.

Her position is nonsense.  She simultaneously claims that the bill can't be defeated and that we need to work for it in case it fails.  She simultaneously claims we can't expect the people she raised money for to keep their promises and yet if she knew that was true she deceived everyone when raising those funds.  That's fraud.  She has now completely reversed her position from demanding a robust public option and saying kill the bill otherwise to saying that any PO is a good one and that killing the bill is to be a Naderite and helping Liebermann (apparently saying that sounds worse than "helping the Republicans") and "impossible".

She refuses to adequately answer any of her critics.

I just don't see any way to give her the benefit of any doubt at this point.  I think she has become too needy of keeping up her contacts with the so-called progressive block to criticise them.  She is corrupted by that.  At least that is the most charitable interpretation possible before Stu tells me which CIA / Scaiffe front organisation pays FDL's bills.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 18:17:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Your last paragraph, exactly. (0.00 / 0)

She doesn't have an actual argument, you can see from the diary and in her interaction with smart commenters. Being exposed is hard on her, and so you get mostly anger.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 22:02:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's sad (0.00 / 0)

but Jane Hamsher seems to have gone 100% Veal Pen as she would put it.  She's even dutifully attacking Ralph Nader now.  Oh well she may be cute but she's rapidly becoming just another conservative democrat; just another faux left; another Rachel Maddow.

Her replies are just irrational personal attacks towards the end of the piece.  This is the danger of allowing people to criticise you if you're position is wrong.  They might actually do it and then you're screwed.  I wonder if a few more people will be quietly banned at FDL soon?

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 18:04:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's also the danger of having a privately owned public discussion space (0.00 / 0)

You can also read plenty of posts there by asskissers trying to 'protect li'l Jane' from those big bad winning arguments.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 22:08:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Amazingly Daily Kos manages to actually exceed my expectations of their quizzling sycophantic Obamabot trashing of any criticism of the Obamassiah (0.00 / 0)

So Michael Moore posts one of his typical half pleading sugary pollyanna pieces where he bends over backwards to give Obama the benefit of the doubt and tries to convince himself that Obama is not a rightwing dick but is just somehow not getting good advice or some other reatarded explanation for his 100% enemy action.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...

Usual stuff for Michael Moore.

And he's attacked for it quite brutally in two diaries that are voted into the recommended list!

An Open Letter to Michael Moore from President Obama

An open letter from a quasi-celebrity to someone important

Effectively they are trying to Naderise Michael Moore now.  I should say "even" Michale Moore.  Wow.  That actually exceeds my expectations of how fucked up those right wingers are a dKos.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 19:28:07 PM CST

It's also funny cuz _their_ quasi-celebrity, (0.00 / 0)

a helluva lot more quasi than Michael Moore, was expressing similar criticism of Obama Afghan escalation about three pages back from the dkos front page, last Wednesday on the Ed Shultz Show (an Air America right pretends left show). here:

Markos: We must avoid the Afghanistan trap
by Jed Lewison
Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 01:16:04 PM PST

MARKOS MOULITSAS, FOUNDER, "THE DAILY KOS": . . .You know, let me make clear from the start, I hate the Afghanistan Taliban because they're anti-woman, they're anti-gay, they're anti- progress, science. It's the exact same reason I really hate the Michele Bachmanns of the American Taliban. So, there's no love lost for those people.

But the fact is that, you know, we have priorities here at home. And there is no real strategy that we've seen yet that would indicate that this expense in blood and treasure would lead us to hopefully any kind of what you'd call victory in Afghanistan.

SCHULTZ: Markos, is there a rush to judgment on the part of the left? I mean, the president has to make his case to the American people. Or is this not one that's going to be accepted on any terms by the progressive base?

MOULITSAS: Well, we've had nine years in Afghanistan already. I mean, there's no rush to judgment. We've been judging now for almost a decade.

And the fact is that we've seen strategy after strategy fail. And not just us. I mean, go back to the Soviets before us.

I mean, Afghanistan is sort of a pit for great powers. And the last thing we need to do is see the United States fall into that trap when, really, we should be focused about domestic security and the security of the American people. And issues like health care are number one on that front. . . .

SCHULTZ: Markos, what does the president have to say to convince the left on Tuesday night?

MOULITSAS: He would have to say that he needs to pull out the troops from Afghanistan and focus on domestic concerns. God knows we don't have the money...

SCHULTZ: Will he lose support? Well, if that's the case, will he support In the midterms? I mean, will the Democrats pay a price for this decision?

MOULITSAS: Well, I think the midterms are really going to be a referendum on the totality of the Democratic response to all the problems facing our country. Afghanistan is one of those issues, health care is another one. I think if they fail on health care, they fail on Afghanistan, we've got some real problems as a party in 2010.

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/...

So what's the real kos, what he says or what his brownshirt army does? What his brownshirt army does, more than likely. I think what Moulitsas is in fact doing above is him putting on his strategy cap (not his 'what I think is right' cap) and saying, "Hey, this will be very bad for you Obama, the left will abandon you." Which is obvious common sense, especially with the new polling data on the massive 'enthusiasm gap' between Repubs and Dems, talked about here: http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 22:33:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Left Split? (0.00 / 0)

This, I suppose will start to fracture the so called left.

Obama is really a supporter of PNAC. That's what he's engaged in. He's really a supporter of the neo cons and as this becomes undeniable to people who are really just conservative republicans...not as extreme as Michael Ledeen, James Woolsey and the rest...they will separate a little....I guess.

Hard to tell with these people.

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 08:53:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

But that never works (4.00 / 1)

If you identify issue X where the pwoggie base is in danger of opposing you we know that the best strategic response is NEVER EVER to give into their demands but to figure out a better way to co-opt them.

The first tactic would be the equivalent of giving Oliver Twist meat to eat.  And we know they have many ways of manipulating the pwoggies around most issues either by corrupting the organisations they trust, setting up a false limit on their side of the debate which already concedes the main ground, setting up false authorities that pwoggies will trust that say "we can't get any better than this -- don't be a splitter -- don't demand the "perfect".

We know that's the strategy they use so Markos isn't helping Obama like Code PINK for example is.  Or like the Sudan "genocide" groups were.  Or the "support our troops" movement does.  Markos is just making Markos look better, which is fine if he turns around and then says, "You all trust me and we have no choice but to support Obama and Stephanie Herseth still."

I don't think the brown shirts are at this level of understanding and just work on the basis of whose side are you on?

The other point is to recall that authoritarians don't relate things holistically so Markos can easily simulataneously attack Obama and praise him even on the exact same topic without them realising anything is wrong.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 09:01:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What matters to the PTB is what the little people commandants (0.00 / 0)

tell the little people to do at election time, and that they don't tell the little people to organize or protest now against the war (or against the health insurance company Christmas present, or last year against the Wall Street bailout). Markos is reliable on those two counts. His whining is way down the list of irrelevant.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 10:38:36 AM CST

[ Parent ]