Afghanistan, now!

Please, anyone (5.00 / 1)

and everyone. Forget the personal and act on the universal.

Now.

Thank you.

---

by: vox humana @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 23:54:05 PM CST

Sincerity to the cause? Honestly it look a little like BS (4.67 / 3)

We've already discussed at various times the UPJ and Code Pink issues.

"No more troops to be sent. A timeline for the withdrawal"

NOT asking for an immediate withdrawal.  I am glad to see ANSWER is not part of that farce although the so-called peace groups have always been pointlessly split basically because they won't work with ANSWER.

To "succeed" in Afghanistan should be defined as helping Afghans build better lives

Fuck that humanitarian intervention shit.  That's just excusing bloody war crimes.  There is no "success" in Afghanistan.  There is just more and more FAIL which is spelled M-U-R-D-E-R.

Only a comprehensive diplomatic process with all parties

Fuck that shit too.  Diplomatic process?  Oh I get it.  This is where we all pretend that there's not a military occupation going on isn't it?  It's like calling for a "diplomatic process" between Nazis and Jews in WW2.

Badly needed development aid

Yet more excuses to stay occupying the country in the name of "humanitarian" missions.  Fucking bullshit.

Loo this is bloody simple.  You're killing thousands of people as part of a criminal occupation. Quit it.  Get the fuck out of Afghanistan and Iraq.  Immediately.  Yesterday.  No fucking "diplomacy" needed.  No negotiations.  No humanitarian shit.  No "aid".  No "timeline".  Just quit murdering people right now.

Pathetic.  under the terms being asked for I can only assume all those grous are perfectly content that the Iraq "situation" is 100% solved since it qualifies for all those terms.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 00:08:41 AM CST

In that case, (0.00 / 0)

and I don't really disagree with you, I would assume your message to the White House would be worded much more strongly... but you would make a call nonetheless.

If only you lived here, that is.... We are going to need all the words to your effect that we can get.

As far as what these groups do or do not believe, you need not assume that their communique is the final word. I know in the case of at least two of those organizations that this is the beginning.

For those who want to travel further or faster down the road, it is better to hitch a ride part way than stand on the sidewalk and complain about how slowly others are driving.

---

by: vox humana @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 08:22:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

According to Curmudgette, he's not even from England (0.00 / 0)

http://www.pffugeecamp.com/sho...

He plays a character on the internet trying to make lefties look a certain way. He has the sexism. He has the over the top anger issues. No true peaceniks look at women the way he does. You're still at the wrong blog, Vox. I think you'd be happier at a normal place. This one, MLW, DKos, and all those other affiliates and estranged cousin soapbloxes are as fake as a three dollar bill.  


http://davefromqueens2.blogspo...
http://allaircraftarenotinvolv...

---

by: socrates @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:33:06 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I don't see where you get any of that from at that link (4.00 / 1)

But thanks for pointing me to it.  Curmudgette was rather sweet to me there and Blues too.  Nice to be appreciated.

I have developed a grudging affection, over time

Grudging Affections Are the Sweetest

Thanks very much, girls :)

============================================================

And some other nice comments,

He's one smart sob and when he wants to can debate just about anyone into the dirt

============================================================

I guess I was in a bad mood in that thread (a discussion of censorship on blogs following jack's blow up) but ultimately Curmudgette's criticism is flawed and hypocritical.

Please don't presume to tell me what my motivations are.

she says to someone else, but then her whole argument is trying to tell me what my motivations are --- and of course you made the same sort of comments above, socrates.

In fact I used to think other people were like me and spoke from a basis of reason and logic.  The alternative hypothesis seems a much better fit though and I have reluctantly adopted it.  People are generally not rational and comments that go to their non-rational motivations are legitimate too often.  Curmudgette is as good as they get though beyond her issues with protecting MSOC's feelings.  Certainly my affection for her is not at all grudging; she well deserves it.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:56:34 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Come on now give it up (0.00 / 0)

You know you post nazi screeds at sports forums. Your Ted Nugent avatar is all the proof anyone needs.  

---

by: Laura @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:19:49 AM CST

[ Parent ]

She said you're not in England (0.00 / 0)

He's not in England.

If that's true, that he's not from England, then that poses a credibility issue.

For Laura, I conceded he wasn't that other DavidByron calling Obama a socialist. But the other points are spot on. He has anger issues. He does make plenty of misogynist posts. True lefty peaceniks do not think that way.

There is that thread with him and Fairleft seeming to be the same person. I linked to it on the NarcoNews thread. Fairleft showed his own misogynistic streak at MLW by supporting ThereIsNoRape while simultaneously attacking Francis Holland.  

Could someone provide links to where DavidByron discusses British politics? If I was posting on political boards in England surely I'd be mentioning what's going on in my neck of the woods and quite often. This guy along with FairLeft are all over the internet.

Maryscott O'Connor has to sleep in the hypocritical bed she made for herself. She deleted hundreds of posts in a thread to protect her friend ThereIsNoRape. She banned Holland for no good reason. I think Phil.I.Stine, another friend of hers, is the notorious AngryRich, John Gibson's producer. It looks like Karmafish is now an administrator at MLW. The whole soapblox world is contaminated.


http://davefromqueens2.blogspo...
http://allaircraftarenotinvolv...

---

by: socrates @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 15:39:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You're a little nutty aren't you? (4.00 / 1)

A credibility issue?  LOL.

that other DavidByron calling Obama a socialist

Who, what, where!?  Another DavidByron?

As for TINS he was right about the rape but is an ass generally.  In fact as I recall he was just claiming to be presenting the views of the majority of young people on the topic as well as common sense.  The MLW crowd made a joke of themselves insisting that when two drunk people have sex the man always rapes the woman because women can never consent and men don't ever have to or some shit.  In short; you're the sexist one here.

I ended up asking them if two drunk lesbians having sex rape each other?  For some odd reason none ever could reply to that so it was a conversation stopper.  One of the first diaries ever at that blog-before-FSZ... what the hell was that one called?  Political Flesh Feast.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 16:09:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"This guy along with FairLeft are all over the internet." (0.00 / 0)

Why I read socrates posts. Very repetitively all over the internet yeah, but just saying, gotta day job sorta, and hey, visitors, you are at fairleft's  remote mountaintop fortress (not in England, btw) where he, Laura, doberman and David B reside, throwing left is right and right is left thunderbolts all over the internet!  

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:13:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Is it in New England? (0.00 / 0)

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:25:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm not saying, but crunchy granola Vermont sounds about right. (0.00 / 0)

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:33:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm afraid even REMOVING the troops could be meaningless (4.00 / 1)

if we continue to operate in this way.  

---

by: Laura @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 09:57:38 AM CST

So true. (0.00 / 0)

That's another step to be considered.

This diary isn't about permanent solutions really so much as it is about doing something, though. Something just at least a little bit more than nothing. And if enough people take advantage of this feedback being sought, it just might be more than a little bit more than nothing.

But the indisputable fact remains that we won't know whether this has any meaning unless we try it. I want at least to have tried something.

---

by: vox humana @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:29:27 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Obviously "remove the troops" (4.25 / 4)

includes mercenaries, "advisers" and spooks for anyone who's concern is the victims of the war not the perps (and sadly most "peace" groups show more concern for the latter).

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:33:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Well sure, but it would help if the ptb could (4.00 / 1)

at least start speaking the same language as the rest of us. I'm dreaming I know, but this step would maybe even  shape the foggy intentions of 'peace' groups into concretion.

---

by: Laura @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:17:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The PTB are UFPJ and so on (4.00 / 2)

This feeble, will-to-lose mild neo-protest is just to keep the focus on them and to keep people thinking they are 'the' antiwar groups. They're a joke, Democratic Party subordinate organizations mainly about electing more Dems, cuz we know that's what really matters for the careers of the individuals at the top of these pathetic anti-peace organizations.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:31:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Like I said, I know I'm dreaming :) (0.00 / 0)

The yippies are worthless.

---

by: Laura @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:34:29 AM CST

[ Parent ]

True in some cases, (4.00 / 1)

perhaps, not in others.

Peace is of course a goal, but it's also a process!

Continual and continuous.

---

by: vox humana @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:55:06 AM CST

[ Parent ]

If peace is a process, it's a democratic, from the grassroots process (4.00 / 1)

And that's not how these top-down groups like Move On and UFPJ are oriented, or how they work. The grassroots, the average Democratic Party voter, is where there is real antiwar (not just "don't increase the troops") sentiment. If a group represents that, and a few -- Veterans for Peace, Iraq Veterans Against the War -- do, I think, then they should stop putting up with the feeble stuff and coalesce with like-minded groups, not with groups that are in fact (read the Glaring Headline Type between the lines) in favor of long-term, nation-building occupation of Afghanistan.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:21:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Obama is a Murderer, Rapist, Torturer and Killer (4.00 / 1)

C'mon Obama is a jagoff.

He's George Bush continued. Fuck him.

There's nothing intellectual about this ....this is craven madness and you aren't going to get anywhere by talking about this jagoff bastard prick any longer.

What difference would it make if McCain had won?   Only a little bit of difference.

A lot of those who voted for him wouldn't listen to what he was saying. He said he was going to go into war in the mideast...

All this bullshit about how he's really looked into the situation and he's made the military guys show him a plan is an act for public consumption.

He should be roundly condemned for the killed he is.  

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 17:49:17 PM CST

you'll feel differently once he explains everything (4.33 / 3)

WASHINGTON - War-weary Americans will support more fighting in Afghanistan once they understand the perils of losing, President Barack Obama declared Tuesday, announcing he was ready to spell out war plans virtually sure to include tens of thousands more U.S. troops.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory

---

by: doberman pinche @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 18:45:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Loser America (4.00 / 1)

I want America to lose....and they already have.

You don't gain anything by "winning" against imaginary enemies that don't exist.

What a shameful nation of drugged up Zombies who always insist on "appropriate"  behavior.

Homogenous white milk toasts.

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 23:34:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

no, there isn't anything (4.00 / 1)

to win or lose.  

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory

---

by: doberman pinche @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 10:29:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks for reading my diary, Stu. (4.00 / 1)

I think.

Did you read my diary?

And whom do you see here at this site as a supporter of Mr. Obama's policies?

---

by: vox humana @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 09:01:25 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Vox...Please. (4.75 / 4)

Yes, I have read it and it belies a complete lack of understanding of American politics and whatever the hell the "situation" is in the Mid East. America is currently at war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, Colombia and several other"stans" and actually a lot of nations that have "muslims" in them.

Secondly this bit of condescending colonial mind trap nonsense is offensive from the idiotic Huffington Post which I'm sure is ultimately connected to the intelligence agencies...and i know you find that hard to believe...Arianna Huffington is not a "liberal" and neither is Narco News or Daily Kos...and THEY ARE CONNECTED TO "intelligence" agencies an oxymoron in itself)

"To "succeed" in Afghanistan should be defined as helping Afghans build better lives and peaceful futures for their children and their nation. That's why we support a strategy of diplomacy, the rule of law, accountability and development that meets the U.S.'s moral obligations both to American soldiers and to Afghan citizens."

This assumes that Afghans need "help"
This assumes that America might be able to help Afghans "build" better lives.
This assumes that the Afghan life is not very good and that Americans can show them how to live "better".
This assumes that America can help Afghans in having a Peaceful future
This assumes America knows how to help Afghans have a peaceful future while the Americans are bombing them.
This assumes America can help Afghans develop the rule of law, while Americans kidnap, torture and kill people based not on the rule of law but suspicion of something undefined.

I could go on.

This is why it's important to understand the emotional content of the words your reading. The sentiment of the words your reading.

The Afghan people are far more sophisticated than American people. That's because people who are oppressed, always are. They are more sensitive to cues. They are more perceptive, because they are focused on what's happening around them. Their thinking is not so sloppy as the author of the quoted paragraph thinking is.

That paragraph is pure madness. It is an endorsement of the war. It is a pro war paragraph disguised as an anti war paragraph because it suggests that Afghans are inferior, Americans superior and that America's true intention is to help.

It's perverse. It's insane.

Hope that helps you in your thinking. If you can't understand that, you cannot understand or predict what's going to happen next and you leave yourself very vulnerable...on a personal level and of course in understanding political movements.

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 09:38:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Stu, I agree with most (0.00 / 0)

of what you say, but how do you think we are going to stop this? Really. Isn't it at least partially necessary to register one's dissatisfaction with the powers-that-be, whoever they are at the moment?

---

by: vox humana @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 09:44:43 AM CST

[ Parent ]

They can read an opinion poll (5.00 / 2)

They already know what people think.  Stu is saying this sort of campaign is sort of pushing in the opposite direction.  It is targeting the left to try and blunt their criticism and it is quite effective when combined with financially inducements which connect to right wing organisations.

Vox, this is a use of psychological conditioning.  By participating in something you buy into it.  Cognitive dissonance.  The objective is not to alter Obama's mind, but yours.  Obama isn't participating in any of this.  he's not going to be reading this or listening.  You are.  This is to train you to be ineffective by,

(1) making you accept the occupation as legitimate as Code PINK now has, at least to the point of not calling for an immediate withdrawal

(2) training you to think of war as an option not a terrible crime

(3) making you think in terms of wars costs as being pathetic things like money and US soldiers instead of millions of dead

(4) getting you to think of Obama as a legitimate partner for peace

There is a danger of course that by encouraging any activity at all they are training you to do stuff, and you might do more, but since all the actions are contained within official channels the pay off is worth it to them.  

As to what would actually work that is the same as asking what they fear.  There are two answers.

The first is that you could buy a shotgun and blow the face off some/any rich fucker.

The second is that you try to create a situation where the public is educated in the direction of truth which is the exact opposite of where that email is headed.  That the occupation is not legitimate, should be ended immediately, is a huge crime killing millions, that these victims deaths and suffering of relatives is the point of most concern, that US soldier are criminals not heroes, that Obama is not a partner for peace and is illegitimate, that while the US has caused great suffering it cannot aid Afghanistan.  Generally push the opposite way from that email.

You can see I hope how subtle the control is.  But people are sophisticated these days because of their bombardment with advertising.  That's all this is.  Advertising a product (war) using a fake attack on itself.  It's like those anti-smoking adverts by Phillip Morris.

Or perhaps you don't "get" those either....
Is this going over your head?

Manufacturing of consent is where it is at.  It's a hundreds of billions of dollars industry and war is sold the same ways.  If you have a shitty product to sell you just switch up the way you sell it.  It's sophisticated these days Vox.  They have to fake sincerity and gull you in.  They know they can't get everyone with their gung-ho rah-rah patriotic army and marines ads.

You either try and beat them at their own game of manufacturing consent or you buy a shotgun.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 10:50:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Or like those "clean energy" ads by the big oil companies (0.00 / 0)

They've been on more recently.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:05:10 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Here's an example at FDL (0.00 / 0)

Jane Hamsher is writing about MoveOn.org is now funding anti-health care ads.

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.c...

The powers that be got to them.  Just like with CODE Pink.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:39:34 AM CST

[ Parent ]

By "shotgun" btw (0.00 / 0)

I am not advocating rebellion.

That's a retarded idea (that oddly enough I see thrown out a lot at pwoggie sites when they get depressed).  If you can't even get people to vote positive how you going to get them to take to the streets?

No there's zero point competing with the elites on the game of who can fight a war.  That's not the point.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:44:21 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Speaking Truth To Power (5.00 / 2)

is the phrase.  Now some wags recently have been saying, and it's quite clever, "You don't need to speak truth to power; power already knows the truth."  Of course what Speaking Truth To Power means is not to give advice to the powerful as if they would go, "Oh gee, I really never thought of that!" and quit killing people (although frankly the weak shit at the top of the page acts that way, and so does most progressive stuff), but rather Speaking truth To Power is a repudiation of the powerful, but the target audience is the powerless.  When you go on a rally you are indoctrinating yourself -- you are not taking a message to the powerful.  They already know.  You are conditioning yourself and others, and in the old days at least, getting a message out by means of making headlines, to others who are powerless, although these days media control is tighter.

That's why those ANSWER rallies have all those speakers on who give talks about all sorts of shit besides the war.  It's an education opportunity.  It's saying this is your new normative behaviour -- you don't act like fucking sheep any more and you believe different stuff.  They don't have to tell you the war is bad at an anti-war fucking rally.  You are at an anti-war rally for fucks sake.  You already know war is bad.  But they have an opportunity for re-education including perhaps telling you more about the depths of the problem that you didn't know as well as making holistic connections to other issues such as racism and the Palestinian occupation.

Those other guys don't do that.  They stand their for a while and say, "yes we're against the war" and then go home.

We here are the educated fucking elite.  We know this shit, well some of us anyway.  We know Rwanda wasn't a genocide that happened despite the best efforts of the US but failed due to a lack of intervention but was rather a civil war instigated by the US to take over Rwanda (which it did) as a base for invading the Congo (which it did) and led to ten times more deaths there than the entire so-called genocide.

Shit like that matters.

It matters because it shows you how much of a bunch of lying crap all this talk of humanitarian intervention is.  And it tells you its just as bad under Democrats -- that was on Clinton's watch and that was/is 10 million dead.  And it tells you how slick they are and how much of the media they control EVEN what gets said on pwoggie sites.

And that's why I don't like that email Vox because it's pushing the other way.  It's whitewashing war and in the end encouraging it.  There's some good but there's more bad.  And you know that they agree with me.  Why?  Because as Stu points out they are funding this shit.  They are betting that making you swallow the humanitarian shit will pay more dividends for war than making you more "active".  It is a risk yes, and they do realise that what that email is doing is not perfect for them but it's a push in the right direction (for them, in their view and mine too).

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:45:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

60 minutes on Congo war (0.00 / 0)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

I'm guessing they won't mention anything about America or Rwanda.  Hey, it's just blacks killing blacks right?  Those savages really deserve to be in their primitive state.  Maybe they need a "humanitarian intervention"?

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:49:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I wish these groups' statements were actually antiwar so (0.00 / 0)

I could be with you on this, vox.

But if a coalition of big-time Dem-Party-subordinate groups 40 years ago was for nation-building and stabilization of the number of troops in Vietnam at 450,000, I wouldn't pick up the phone or wtf for that cause.

And politically, it's WTF shoot yourself in the head stuff. As I've diaried before, something like 9% of Americans wants to stabilize the number of troops in Afghanistan. Most of us want out, and the rest want to increase the number of troops. So the big 'antiwar' groups side with the 9%?

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:40:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, that's the thing. (4.00 / 2)

Just because these groups may want people who call to say things by script doesn't mean that that's what people actually have to say. When I call, I say "Get us out, now." Without "talking points." I should have eliminated that part of the diary, because I don't want people to say those things... I know I didn't.

I agree with everyone about further education on the issues being extremely important. Not into the violent overthrow at all - no surprise there....

But there is a vast in-between that involves protest and coalition building and speaking up and acting out. It has to start somewhere. I don't think it's very productive to the goal to tell people NOT to call the White House because it does no good - even if it's true FOR THE PRESENT! Tell them not to say those "talking points," fine. Tell them why, yes! But get people involved - doing - not discouraged and helpless in rage. That's useless.

All I meant to do was get people thinking about acting on their concerns - speaking up publicly, maybe in ways they have never done before. Couldn't that build?

When did everyone suddenly decide that I was so stupid that I thought calling the White House once was going to change much of anything they do? Oy. But it might change what some of US do. That's what has to be done. People have to mobilize somehow. Let's try something. Something positive. Something active.

---

by: vox humana @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 13:27:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Being part of this "don't increase the troops" call is anti-peace. (0.00 / 0)

That's obvious.

Hell, I don't what to do, I wish I did, but enough of doing what Code Pink, UFPJ and MoveOn want to do. They want nation building delivered by U.S. and U.S.-hired killers.  

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 13:34:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I think I pre-addressed some of those points (5.00 / 1)

For example I specifically said I was not saying "violent overthrow".  I said shoot a rich guy in the face.  Big difference.  The rich seem to have forgotten that there's a reason for what they used to call "noblesse oblige" or in another day and age, "panem et circenses"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

Here's what I mean from the always magnificent bellatrys (2005) quoting the sometimes excellent Alexis de Tocqueville (1835) on the subject of the old vs the new aristocracy:

The territorial aristocracy of former ages was either bound by law, or thought itself bound by usage, to come to the relief of its serving-men and to relieve their distress. But the manufacturing aristocracy of our age first impoverishes and debases the men who serve it and then abandons them to be supported by the charity of the public. This is a natural consequence of what has been said before. Between the workman and the master there are frequent relations, but no real association.

I am of the opinion, on the whole, that the manufacturing aristocracy which is growing up under our eyes is one of the harshest that ever existed in the world; but at the same time it is one of the most confined and least dangerous. Nevertheless, the friends of democracy should keep their eyes anxiously fixed in this direction; for if ever a permanent inequality of conditions and aristocracy again penetrates into the world, it may be predicted that this is the gate by which they will enter.

So why did the old aristocracy feel the need for noblesse oblige and the new aristocracy does not?  Well partly because of public institutions for alleviating poverty these days, but partly because not enough rich people get shot in the face.

The purpose of looking after your peasants is to avoid being shot in the face.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 14:58:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes (3.00 / 1)

Yes, It's something. I filled out the form.

But I think that the powers at be basically just see people as objects to be manipulated...I don't think they care too much what the public thinks because much of the public has been medicated to supress feeling and those that aren't don't care, it's not in style, it's a theme in these times to coalesce around any issues that serve the people well.

I think they would pay attention more if they are threatened by unruly crowds, homegrown disturbances, mass picketing etc. ....but they have weapons and procedures now that screw all that type of protest up.  

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 18:55:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Greenwald is flaking for Obama again. (0.00 / 0)

Whether Obama has adopted every last radical Bush/Cheney terrorism policy -- he hasn't -- is not the point.  And the question of whether "Obama is as bad as Bush" -- he isn't -- is no more relevant than the excuse that Bush's torture program shouldn't be criticized because at least it never reached the level of Saddam's rape rooms and limb removals.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 18:32:54 PM CST

Obama is worse than Bush (0.00 / 0)

Obama is a relay runner for George Bush who relayed Ronald Reagen...there is no difference between them except that each step toward the abyss makes them worse.

Obama is worse than Bush....he's tricked the liberals into supporting Bush's policies...that's worse.

He is every inch an Anti Christ type. He is the opposite of what he seems to those who actually believe he's sincere at all.

I have ALWAYS known he would do what he's doing now. ALWAYS. It makes me sick.

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 23:37:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Who could have predicted it? (5.00 / 1)

Well a whole bunch of us of course.  And as always the people who are best at predicting these things are the people most able to see through the smoke and mirrors are those most lauded by the progressive community.

Me for example; welcomed everywhere.

And you Stu.  I bet you have to fend them off with a broom -- all the invitations to post to the front page all over the place in recognition of how you got it right when 99% of the blogosphere fucked it up AGAIN.

Oh wait no.  I am banned from everywhere and the same fucking sold out cretins as ever go on preaching to the sheeple.

Still here we both are at this incredibly popular blog (no offense Laura, as you know) because if there's one thing people seek out beyond anything else it's cogent political criticism with a pedigree track record.

That's why this place is also so fucking popular:

http://www.zcommunications.org...

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 00:47:29 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Will Obama go after social security? (5.00 / 1)

As Clinton did?  This is why we've been saying Obama is much more dangerous than Bush.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/...

How has it come about that the blogosphere has fallen so far short of its potential?  It could have been an agent of public education and instead it peddles the masters' shit for pennies.  Places like dKos are the Blackwater of the blogosphere.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 00:54:48 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Obama is dismantling Medicaid (0.00 / 0)

He's dismantling medicaid....for chrissakes! under the rubric of this phoney health care package.

Yes, he's already mentioned he thinks social security needs to be reworked!

Honestly I'm very disturbed by his ability to posture to the left while moving to the right...he uses catch phrases of the left and acts to the right.

He is, for all practical purposes accurately described in the idea of an Anti Christ.

I better read up on Nostradamus

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 09:44:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

dailykos got big (4.00 / 1)

after it received media attention. not merely through internet channels but on teevee. maybe we should pool our money and hire a publicist to get you on some shows. i hope you're not terribly ugly because that won't help us. but really, kos has absolutely no presence or speaking skills and he managed to do it so why can't you?

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory

---

by: doberman pinche @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 10:42:24 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Why don't you try and get me on a blog first? (0.00 / 0)

You name it, I've been banned from it.

Well actually that's an exaggeration.  I think I've been banned from Daily Kos, Huffington Post, AmericaBlog, Open Left, Glen Greenwald, ... never really posted at TMP... seemed like a right wing site, though I have been banned from a few of those,  Fire Dog Lake, Hullabaloo, I never posted at that place Armando ended up at but he'd ban me on sight, and said so, plenty of smaller places including most feminist blogs of any note (and the rest would do so on sight).

You know you need to start a journey with small steps.  How do you figure you're going to change broadcast TV when you can't even influence a small blog?

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:03:32 AM CST

[ Parent ]

well (0.00 / 0)

there's your hook. like howard stern "banned by the fcc". people like that kinda stuff.
anyway it's not about changing broadcast tv, it's just about giving them a story.

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory

---

by: doberman pinche @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:25:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

i think you would make a good (0.00 / 0)

panelist on the bill maher show. we can start with that and see how you do.
your credentials are impeccable, although most of them have probably been deleted.

please start taking screen shots like socrates does. we need them for the press kit.

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory

---

by: doberman pinche @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:02:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Can anyone here tell me the real reason why they don't get a letter? (0.00 / 0)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

The Journal reports that the family of 25-year-old Army specialist Chancellor Keesling, who killed himself in Baghdad this summer, is "mounting a lobbying effort" to get the White House to overturn its policy, and that "a bipartisan array of lawmakers from their home state of Indiana" has joined their efforts.

   "If the president wants to destigmatize mental health, and destigmatize military suicide, why does he stigmatize families like ours by pretending that our son didn't die?" said Spec. Keesling's father, Gregg Keesling. "If Chance had been struck by lightning in Baghdad or hit by a car, we would have gotten a letter. We shouldn't be treated differently because he died by suicide."

Probably.  But I wonder if asked the same question anywhere else what the answer would be.  (The real reason is that if the government officially recognised suicides in this way it would immediately vastly increase their figures for dead US soldiers.  Reducing the reported number of US dead in a war is key to the propaganda effort to continue war, on the assumption warranted or otherwise, that Americans only care about the number of strangers killed in a war who have are in some sense Americans)

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 08:48:54 AM CST

Saudi death penalty for witchcraft (0.00 / 0)

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/200...

I am wondering if we would be hearing more about this if the accused were women.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:12:36 AM CST

Of course not (0.00 / 0)

because we have no intentions of overthrowing the dictatorship. Yet.

---

by: Laura @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:46:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

fucking outrageous: U.S. won't sign landmine treaty (4.33 / 3)

The word mydd prefers is 'disappointing'.

A Disappointing Decision on Landmines
by Charles Lemos, Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:51:29 AM EST

The Obama Administration announced late today (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN24329250) that it will not sign an international convention banning landmines but would send observers to a review conference on the treaty in Cartagena, Colombia. State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said Tuesday that the Administration recently completed a review and had decided not to change the Bush-era policy.

"We decided that our land mine policy remains in effect," he said. "As a global provider of security, we have an interest in the discussions there," Kelly said. "But we will be there as an observer, obviously, because we haven't signed the convention, nor do we plan to sign the convention." . . .

http://www.mydd.com/story/2009...

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:44:08 PM CST

More change you can choke on. (4.00 / 2)

Keep piling it up and maybe the stink will reach the noses of some progressives.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:49:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Princess Diana is spinning in her grave. (4.00 / 2)

Maybe a diary with photos of children who have been maimed by landmines and unexploded ordinances juxtaposed with photos of Sasha and Malia planting a 'Peace' garden with Michelle.

---

by: 4kedtongue @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 13:07:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Didn't I already do that? (5.00 / 1)

Or was that another juxtaposition? It gets monotonous, this war porn, but it's what the U.S. and its allies do, along with a whole bunch of wonderful stuff I'm sure.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 13:37:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Fine. After 20 years I succumb (4.40 / 5)

To putting something in my "sig".  Hope you like it, as I do.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 12:59:51 PM CST

geez (0.00 / 0)

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama will announce his plan to bolster the war in Afghanistan in a speech Tuesday night from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, his spokesman said, a surge that military officials say could top 30,000 troops.

oh well

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory

---

by: doberman pinche @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 14:33:24 PM CST

Perfect place to do his submission to the military's higher power (0.00 / 0)

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:49:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Round up of crap (0.00 / 0)

http://www.tmz.com/2009/11/28/...

So Tiger Woods is beaten up by his wife.  I wonder if he will be told he needs to leave her?  Will the domestic violence (with a deadly weapon) be taken up as a cause by the same people who did it when a female celebrity was on the receiving end?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11...

So Obama still has secret torture camps dotted about the place.  Who knew?  Well not Glen Greenwald who was last seen parroting the claim that Obama had shut them all down as why he is not like Bush.  Grenwald's evidence for this position was that Obama had said they were shut down.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 19:00:30 PM CST

Paul Rosenberg the racist Jew, on how he supports free speech (0.00 / 0)

I like the ideal of free speech, not just as a constitutional principle, but as a civic one.  The cure for bad ideas and bad attitudes should be better ones.

But we all know that doesn't always work.

Wow.  I wonder what he'd say if he really disliked free speech.

The really odd thing is why Paul "never saw someone I didn't want to ban unless they were a raving Zionist" Rosenberg (lately from turning MLW into a hell hole), would bother to try and "explain" why he started banning people at OpenLeft.  I wonder if perhaps he wasn't supposed to do it and was left with the keys as it were while Chris Bower is away.  Hey didn't Ropsenberg do the same thing at MLW too?  Wait for the proprietor to go away and then institute some sort of putsch?  Him or one of his Zionista buddies.

Just another day in the banosphere complete with the ritual loyalty oaths pos-banning.

it's completely refreshing to have such an honest and thoughtful discussion

Right.  Kick off one half of the participants and THEN have an honest and thoughtful discussion.  

I'm not aware of the user & comments that were banned, so I don't have any input on the particular topic

Gee.  Do you think maybe the fact they were banned and all their comments deleted might possibly have some bearing on the fact that you have no input on the discussion which you nevertheless called, "honest and thoughtful"?

These people are a fucking joke.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 19:22:38 PM CST

it's not worth looking (0.00 / 0)

but here's the link anyway:
http://www.openleft.com/diary/...

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 19:23:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I particularly enjoyed this (5.00 / 1)

comment in the thread by a user who approved of your? banning...

PS: I'm a rabid free speecher, but it just so happens there are a lot of places for people of such ilk to express themselves freely and even get lots of Recommends. dKos chief among them. Thoughtful disagreement is one thing, mindless sycophancy another.

Banning sucks. But bannings at places with names like "Open Left" and "Free Speech Zone" are a hilarity.

"May we live long and die out"

---

by: supersoling @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 20:00:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Someone at FDL gets it (0.00 / 0)

http://seminal.firedoglake.com...

An advanced FDL commentator is about up to where the slowest people here were over a year ago.  Well if the whiteysphere were a business it would be in chapter 8 wouldn't it.....

A good diary.  Summed up in a phrase, "Obama is the salesman the elites got to sell us all the anti-progressive crap that the Republicans could no longer sell."

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 02:23:49 AM CST

Daily crap (0.00 / 0)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

I've glanced at a few of these stories with one question in mind, never answered: WHAT fucking criminal charges???  Exactly what fucking criminal charge can you apply to someone who (if the claims they deny are true that they were not invited) just walks up to your house and lets you invite them in, as the secret service did -- their own fault.

Can't / won't prosecute for mass murder but we'll make up some shit to prosecute innocent people who humiliate us?

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 11:06:07 AM CST

Arianna Huffington making sense (0.00 / 0)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

This is a good piece on the unemployment situation (apart from the suggested ways to fix it which are the usual Republican shit about bailing out the rich, (although at least in this case that just means small business owners) instead of directly helping people.

But the criticism of Obama is good including a little factoid I'd managed to miss:

Summers, who actually opposed the extension of unemployment benefits Obama just signed.

These payments are intended to prevent literal riots breaking out as people realise they have nothing to lose any more and no stake in the system even to the point where the threat of violence by the system (ie jail / prison rape for men) begins to be balanced by other factors.

Even the Republicans voted en masse for that bill (after holding it up a few weeks).

Summers is truly in cloud cuckoo land at this point.  A literal Marie Antoinette who doesn't get real politic and the need to prevent riots.

the unemployment rate for workers aged 16 to 24 at 19 percent, and the unemployment rate for young African-Americans at 30 percent.

This is a riot situation forming.  That's the base unemployment figure not the "real" figure there btw.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 11:27:29 AM CST

Riots (almost) never more needed in urban black neighborhoods (0.00 / 0)

I'd guess it's as bad as it's been since the 1930s. And the PTB policy is 'ignore' or to put up billboards saying 'stop shooting our kids'.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:09:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

For men (0.00 / 0)

the unemployment is the worst it has been since WW2 and so presumably, yes, back to the 1930s.  For women it's not worse than the 80s.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 18:30:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The underwhelming reaction to "Dog bites man" (4.00 / 2)

As you all know some respectable corporate news service recently 'broke' the "news" that Obama is still torturing people in secret prisons and black sites throughout the world.  Didn't say it quite that bluntly but it said it clear enough for even idiot pwoggy bloggers to have to take note of.  Greenwald took note.  He didn't say anything like, "Gosh i have been wrong to defnd Obama for a year on the basis of his having lied and claim he closed these places down and stopped the torture".

Actually he didn't yet.  It just feels so muchy he might as well have.

Diby's actual response is here:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com...

It's practically nothing.  Repeated in full:

Still Happening
by digby

As we begin a week of furious debate about the inevitable escalation and heartsnmindsnationbuilding in Afghanistan, it's more than a little bit depressing to read this article in the New York Times yesterday:

(quotes article about the secret torture black prisons)

I don't know if this information also had anything to do with the resignations of Greg Craig and Philip Carter, the two men most associated with Obama's stated policy to end these practices, but you cannot help but wonder.

Note the absence of any sort of surprise or shock.  The truth is we all knew Obama never stopped torturing people and never shut down the black CIA prisons.  They all knew.

This is in fact a characteristic of mostdebate i find myself in.  Persuading people to admit to the truth they clearly already understand in their hearts is about 99.99% of it because whenever anyone does concede anything they have a complete lack of surprise or reaction.  Usually they concede one argument and just put up a logically-inconsistent second one immediately.  The lack of validity of their world view as a factual matter is simply a non-issue.

I recall one case about 12 years ago that was an exception.  A feminist who upon discovering that the wage gap was pure bullshit actually got angry about it.  She was actually angry at being lied to and hoodwinked.  it was a unique reaction in all the years I've debated people.

Digby is not surprised to see this story and Greenwald hasn't even bothered to comment on this non-news. What does that say about the convictions they have in their own arguments?

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 12:08:26 PM CST

This is an important diary (0.00 / 0)

http://firedoglake.com/2009/11...

An explanation or two compared explanations for why so-called liberal organisations often act against the interests of their members.  Something we've talked about quite a bit here of late between Narco News and the anti-war groups that half-heartedly ended up endorsing occupation.  The article adds other examples.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

---

by: DavidByron @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 16:49:47 PM CST

Yeah, and aren't the revered by pwoggies NGOs just (0.00 / 0)

non-profits? What exactly was it about NGOs that was gonna save the world? Being dependent on rich people and corporations for most of your money has obvious consequences, and in fact NGOs are basically at the forefront of only one important political movement, a right-wing one, the privatization of social services into the hands of, of course, NGOs.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:32:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

There are no important diaries, btw (0.00 / 0)

But that's a squeaky little unimportant diary definitely less unimportant than the vast majority.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

---

by: fairleft @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:33:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]