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Joe Jackson beat Michael to turn him into a pop star

by: fairleft

Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 12:11:14 PM EDT


Michael Jackson made perfectly disposable music everybody was in love with for 15 minutes back in the 80s. It got real tired real fast, and, uh, let's see how long this rebirth in sales for his old trite shit lasts. Not. v. long. Here's the real meaning of Michael Jackson:

Joe Jackson beat his children to turn them into pop stars. For that he was rewarded with the American Dream, fame and fortune. Why don't we celebrate that?

Wikipedia:
fairleft :: Joe Jackson beat Michael to turn him into a pop star
Jackson said that he was physically and emotionally abused by his father [Joe Jackson] from a young age, enduring incessant rehearsals, whippings and name-calling. However, he also credited his father's strict discipline as playing a large part in his success. In one altercation - later recalled by Marlon Jackson - Joseph held Michael upside down by one leg and "pummeled him over and over again with his hand, hitting him on his back and buttocks". Joseph would also trip or push his male children into walls. One night while Jackson was asleep, Joseph climbed into his room through the bedroom window. Wearing a fright mask, he entered the room screaming and shouting. Joseph said he wanted to teach his children not to leave the window open when they went to sleep. For years afterwards, Jackson said he suffered nightmares about being kidnapped from his bedroom. In 2003, Joseph admitted to the BBC that he had whipped Jackson as a child.

Jackson first spoke openly about his childhood abuse in a 1993 interview with Oprah Winfrey. He said that during his childhood he often cried from loneliness and would sometimes start to vomit upon seeing his father. In Jackson's other high profile interview, Living with Michael Jackson (2003), the singer covered his face with his hand and began crying when talking about his childhood abuse. Jackson recalled that Joseph sat in a chair with a belt in his hand as he and his siblings rehearsed and that "if you didn't do it the right way, he would tear you up, really get you".

Joe Jackson, 'daddy', is a criminal. But he gets a pass in the infotainment flood.
Poll
Should Michael Jackson's dad be in jail for child abuse?
Yes.
No.

Results

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Joe Jackson beat Michael to turn him into a pop star | 106 comments
"The Circle of Abuse" (4.00 / 2)
Wasn't there a hit with a title something like that?
I voted no. Too many jailed peeps already, THE LEFT (haha) SHOULD BE AGAINST THE CURRENT PRISON SYSTEM NOT FOR ITS PERPETUATION (0.00 / 0)
Besides, statute of limitations is up and if I understand it, the son and father had long since made peace with each other.

I was a sensitive kid too and had physical issues for a time, back strain and digestive problems mostly, as a result of stress. And mainly a a result of pressure to succeed in baseball. Self induced but I blamed it my father, who was strict disciplinarian as well.

As I grew older, I gained perspective and realized that most of what success I have is the result of his belief in me and the discipline. Still, I dont hit my kids.

Recommended for the viewpoint that Jackson's solo career was heavily overrated, especially if you remove the videos and the dancing from the equation and focus on the music itself. You are correct, disposable, forgettable, merely a platform for his dancing and entertaining abilities, which were great I guess. Never saw him live.

His J-5 work was superior, IMHO, mainly because of the talents at Motown. Quincy Jones contribution is mostly forgettable in my book too...

what's the alternative, we beat the hell out of him daily for the same (4.00 / 2)
number of years he beat on Michael and his bros?

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
How about we leave it up to the bros? (0.00 / 0)
Besides, I saw his picture in the paper. He looks like he might be able to handle himself pretty well against a bunch of pwoggie wimps....even he is 70 or wtf.

[ Parent ]
How bout we leave it up to LaToya Jackson? (0.00 / 0)
She seems pretty damn angry at Dad too, sexual abuse was included in the violence against her. She's still very watchable, some lavishly dressed up S-M punishment rituals?

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
The alternative is to banish denial (4.40 / 5)
that it was good for you, established discipline for you, taught you to focus and work hard, is a major part of your success. These rationalizations are all part of denial which allows this abuse to go on for centuries through generations because it ends up being excused.

I suggest you turn to Alice Miller's website and read all she has to say on this subject. A former psychoanalyst she is now an artist(painter) and writer.

It is NEVER OK to hit a child, spank etc. I bet Michael never hit his kids. I think if his mother gets them they need to be carefully observed as she enabled his father to do this to her children. She is not a fit mother.

It is this kind of mother that allows husbands to sexually abuse their daughters (sons too)and pretend it is not going on. Oprah's parents allowed a friend to do it to her and they are still friends with him and have him over when she is home visiting. Oprah needs to assert herself at home on this issue.

[ Parent ]
How am I in denial, Abbey? I just admitted it, for goodness sake....and you can hold the psychobabble. Oprah? No doubt, the Oprah culture. RIOTOUS! (4.00 / 1)
You starts from a false premise.

We are all abused from birth, by the reality of being born and raised by monsters we cant control.  in many ways, sexual, verbal, emotional, even if not physical. Spiritual. But its good to see that Oprah fills up an hour or so of your time...RIOTOUS!

Freud had the parent-child dynamics exactly right, IMHO. His critique of civilization also right on target.

Like Marx, with his class theory. Unfortunately, also like Marx, Freud could describe the problem but his prescription for cure was worthless....there are only two available cures for the problems you describe....enlightenment or death.

Your victim culture malarkey notwithstanding.

Say hi to Sock Rat for me.....

[:o)

[ Parent ]
On denial (3.00 / 2)
I was responding to your content and meant denial that belongs to all of us who whitewash (no pun intended)the cruelty that was done to us as helping us. Or just forgetting that it was done to us.

A criticism associating off content does not mean a personal criticism of you at all.

I also agree with you about Freud and Marx, so read Alice Miler. she was a Freudian and is doing a great deal to bring about enlightened parenting of children. Really she is a marvel.

As for Michael I will say what I have to say about him elsewhere. I do not think he ever harmonally attained manhood. I think he was always androgenous in a harmonal sense. I do not think he was sexually active. And he never seemed in rut. I get that from Ursula LeGuin in one of her novels about a different planet visited from someone on earth. The people are androgenous and only are sexually active from time to time and they change sex depending on ....I really forget.

Rudolph Steiner also predicted the merging of the sexes in the future and you can really see it beginning to take place now. Not only in dress but in all other ways. It is beginning. (I guess I don't know how to spell androgenous, do I?)

[ Parent ]
OK, but here is the fallacy...education and talking about it, massive doses of therapy for all, (4.00 / 1)
criminalizing, none of these are capable of curing problems that go beyond the conscious minds of people, that stem from the ID, or our animal natures if you will.

The enduring problem of mankind. We are who we are and not who we wish we were. Half monkey, half man. Or, half god, half devil, if you will. All. Of. Us.

I appreciate what you say and what you do in helping people to cope with the monstrosity of an inhuman humanity, but Alice Miller is just a person making a living in the delusional belief that she makes a difference.

Only individuals can make a difference in oursleves, through enlightenment and we are an eternity away from that cure even being attempted, much less succeeding. Pushing delusional beliefs and blame outward is not the place to begin.

In the meantime, we must recognize that humans are fallible, that we have all suffered and caused suffering, and that we can at least acknowledge the truth of our own issues instead of finding the bogeyman everywhere else.

[ Parent ]
Left Hand of Darkness. Seminal book on sexuality. Must read. (0.00 / 0)

Where's the forgiveness, Abbey? All gone away?
Do YOU have issues you're in denial about?
[ Parent ]
Left Hand of Darkness. Seminal book on sexuality. Must read. (0.00 / 0)

Where's the forgiveness, Abbey? All gone away?
Do YOU have issues you're in denial about?
[ Parent ]
The alternative as far as Joe is concerned is to keep publicizing what he did (4.00 / 3)
So that it follows him all the rest of the days of his life.
[ Parent ]
Well, that's what I'm doing!!! (3.00 / 3)
But that doesn't mean the larger mass media and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are not enabling the Joe Jacksons by making his criminal abuse taboo.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
The masses will never get it sso forget about them. (3.00 / 1)
And sometimes people awake years and years later and say oh yeah, now I see that.

Thirty years after teaching first grade I can look back at those faces and see each one that was a victim of sexual abuse. At the time it never entered my mind. I had no way of knowing that it played so much a part of how they were in the classroom and whether they were easily able to learn to read or not.

A patient I had later on told me that when wshe was a child everyone had her. Father, brothers, cousins, playmates, just everyone. But her real secret that came out one day was that she couldn't read and she wanted to make sure her son learned. I told her of course she couldn't learn at the time. Look at all those preprimer words:up, down, father, mother, Dick (brother),jump (rhymes with hump), and on and on. Each word loaded with frightening associations. Not a simple story about father, mother, Dick and Jane, Sally and Spot and Puff. So sad. and then I read Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye and the opening paragraph is a running together of words from the preprimer and how they all ran together and she couldn't read them. I gave the book to my patient. A horrifying tale of childhood sexual abuse and early pregnancy by daddy.

Joe Jackson is/was sadistic, and beating children is often the male's way of sexual attack when he cannot admit his pedophile tendencies. and most of us have them. The difference is not acting on them. But to not be aware that we are sexually attracted to certain children is dangerous. We go in denial and then can't see it in others when it is important to be able to see it. The same goes with our own repression of the abuse done to us. It blinds us to what is hapening to others. When I realized this (enlightenment)I saw so much of it all over. Like scales dropped from my eyes.

Our military acquiescence of torture stems from this.

[ Parent ]
I don't know (0.00 / 0)
I have some close experience with children as a teacher and parent and friend of parents. I think divorce, both pre and post, does terrible damage to childrens' ability to focus in the classroom and on learning. I don't see as much sexual abuse out there as you do. Maybe Irish-American parents don't go for that, or if they do they go into the priesthood? ;->

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
Depends on the grade you teach (4.00 / 1)
If they are older students then you won't see it. But a woman from Women Organized Against Rape came to my child psych class once to talk about this topic. After class they gave me their file cards on their thoughts and feelings about the class. A number of them confessed to being sexually abused as children. I had no idea. I called her and told her I thought the cards belonged to her as she did the class. When I told her about students revealing their abuse, she said, Oh yes. It was so and so 5 seats to my left (describing him) and x, y, z, etc. I was dumbfounded and asked her how she knew. she said she was so used to it that she could identify them anywhere she went. She got every one of the correctly.

Amazing.

Now I can't see it with adults. After I know them awhile I can suspect by their behavior and the way they speak about things. But I feel I am just guessing.

[ Parent ]
welcome to the real world for centuries (2.50 / 2)
He may be getting a pass legally as the statute of limitations is well past, but I don't think there's a Jackson's fan anywhere that doesn't know he's an asshole.  It's not like he's held up as some shining star for approval.

When was the last time anyone heard of Joe Jackson before last Thursday?  Infotainment is about selling glossy lives and glossy shit to average joes.  Expecting Infotainment to dig at its own dirty underbelly is a bit byronish.

Who's expecting, I'm replacing! (4.00 / 3)
I've published this diary on FOUR, count 'em, FOUR tiny blogs. That ought to outweigh the cone of silence in the big media. ;->

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
joe jackson left out of will (3.50 / 2)
A will drafted by Michael Jackson in 2002 which divides the singer's estate among his mother, three children and one or more charities could play a central role in determining how his tangled financial relationships will be unwound.
http://online.wsj.com/article/...
sweet revenge!

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory
He'll probably get his share from his wife as she is an enabler. (4.00 / 5)
Oh and Michael's love for his mom. Now that's a piece of information. The mom that let it happen is protected. Denial again.
[ Parent ]
As a society we need to talk about child abuse (3.00 / 1)
The Michael Jackson mess is a perfect opportunity. Instead we'll get denial and fawning over the perps.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
Women are always seen as mere "victims" (0.00 / 0)
Look at the Madoffs.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.
[ Parent ]
Urah Creep (0.00 / 0)
nothing like evidence to the contrary to bring you out of the weeds.
[ Parent ]
Mom saw rampant and extreme child abuse and did nothing (0.00 / 0)
That's a crime, one that should be punished severely.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
in that era (0.00 / 0)
and coming from her background, beating a kid to make him do what he was told was commonplace.  Lots of changes in the last 50 years.

Still wrong, but describing it as rampant and extreme is Byronish.

[ Parent ]
The 'that era' bullshit (0.00 / 0)
The 1960s you mean? Bullshit. It wasn't a time when neanderthals roamed the earth, but in fact was a time during which corporal punishment had already been widely and often officially condemned, by most educators and psychologists, at least since the 1930s.

'Rampant and extreme' reflects accurately the statements of Michael and LaToya. I believe they were telling the truth as best they remember it.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

[ Parent ]
you never went to school in Florida (3.50 / 2)
in the 70's, did ya? :o) It was common practice to beat the shit out of a kid's hind parts with a wooden weapon for the slightest of infractions. Infractions like, say, defending yourself against an assault by another student. Or how's this, taking a full swing with a yardstick at a kid's forearm for having his shirt untucked on the way out of school after the final bell.

Don't know how long it carried into the subsequent years but schools, at least in S. Florida, where populated with sadistic freaks who got their rocks off inflicting physical and psychic pain on innocent, mostly defenseless kids.

The day I raised my hand to a teacher in defense of myself and knocked her off her feet is the day it stopped.

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
yup (0.00 / 0)
home sweet home.  now shut up and do what you're told.
[ Parent ]
I beg to differ (0.00 / 0)


"May we live long and die out"
[ Parent ]
You couldn't pay me to move back (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
Florida is a shithole (4.00 / 2)
now. At least back then you could escape from the school ghouls and the rednecks and the tennis lesson taking rich snot fucks and the sheriffs and, and, and... buy a 4 finger bag for 30 bucks and head to the beach and get high or go spear fishing, canoeing, whatever. They don't have public beaches there anymore. Least none that don't resemble three sided asphalt jungles that you have to pay to enter. Now you get shot instead of getting assaulted. Now there's drugs and gangs all over the place. The whole place is a roach hotel.

"May we live long and die out"
[ Parent ]
Want some cheese with that whine? (2.00 / 1)
It goes well with both, "Flahrida is a dump; it's got no cultyuh" and "everything's bettah in New Yowak."
[ Parent ]
you'll be hard pressed (4.00 / 1)
to find any post I've made extolling the virtues of NY over any place, so I don't understand the need, well, I guess I do, to add the all too common swipe at what non NY'rs ignorantly assume as the way all NY'rs speak. Where I am, the extreme eastern tip of L.I. is still mostly farmland, vineyards and a working marine industry. More like New England than NY. And yeah, it beats the shit out of living in Florida for myriad reasons. For me it begins and ends with the schools. I gave my kids what I didn't have. A stable and safe environment with roots. The only drawback, and it is a significant one, is that there isn't enough racial diversity here. But they haven't developed any insulated, sheltered hangups because of it.

Florida is a shithole. My old neighborhood is crawling with MS-13 now. That's just for starters. I might enlighten you some other day and I might not.

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
Sorry to hear about your old neighborhood (4.00 / 1)
and glad to hear that you like your corner of Long Island.  Florida is not what it was 30 years ago.  It wasn't then what it had been 30 years prior.  Since I have mentioned that I was in the public schools in the 60s, I'll clarify that the most common complaint I heard about Florida at the time in my school was from kids whose parents had forced them to move there from Brooklyn -- and frankly they'd have gotten a lot more sympathy from me for their feelings of homesickness ("Everything's better in New York"), if they hadn't been dumping on my home ("Florida's a dump; it's got no culture").  As Florida's population has grown, it's gotten a lot more "culture;" it's gotten a lot more problems too.

I am aware of the difference between Brooklyn and Long Island accents (since you talked about avaoiding snot-nosed tennis-lesson-taking rich kids, I'm assuming your kids don't have the Lower Shore Lockjaw).  Having lived in rural New England and rural New York, I am aware of some of the advantages and drawbacks of those settings as well.  Having visited Florida within the past few years, I also am aware that there are still some public beaches along the coast (although some of those I used to visit have changed); but I often had to feed a meter.

If you want to get more autobiographical than that, please contact me by e-mail (rustdotypipesatyahoodotcom).

[ Parent ]
Thanks for this reply, Rusty (0.00 / 0)
You and I are alike it seems in that it appears we've both had the opportunity (or curse) to live in various places, among various cultures. I can appreciate not taking kindly to having your home state trashed by someone who isn't native, but I lived there for a long time, off and on, and saw the changes that made, what I consider a marginal place to begin with into a swamp of competing infestations. I've been immersed in the lowest dregs of Florida society and deep inside it's high society in Palm Beach. Both have a negative effect on the whole.

I should clarify that I despise the snowbirds as much as I do the backward rednecks who are native there. I'm no fan of the classic NY'er. I was born in western Nassau county, about 15 or so miles from New York but could no more live there again than I could in Florida. In many ways Long Islanders are worse than NY'ers. They have a brash, superior, but ignorant opinion of themselves that they're not shy to project outward. That behavior sickens me as much as the most racist and backward I knew in Fla.

Anyway, I don't consider my time in Florida as anything less than one of my many learning experiences growing up. There are good people and not so good people everywhere. Some not so good by choice, and others by force of the environment they are trying to survive in.

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
Sorry, I couldn't resist (0.00 / 0)
My point was that Florida has always been less than perfect -- as its residents have observed from many different perspectives.  There's always been crime, especially drug-related because it's one of the major smuggling/import routes into the US market.  Back when the lottery was first proposed for Florida and groups opposing it were claiming that gambling would bring more crime into Florida, it was pointed out that over 20 mafia families were already located in Florida.  The type of crime and location of it may have changed as the population of Florida has grown.  I have heard that Florida is one of the leading places in the nation for fraud, scams and malpractice suits (wealthy retirees attract a certain type of criminal).

Is this gang activity prevalent in your old neighborhood or is it just more widely covered in the news?

[ Parent ]
"Children are meant to be seen and not heard" (0.00 / 0)
"DO as I say, not as I do."

RIOTOUS!

[ Parent ]
"It was common practice to beat the shit out of a kid" (0.00 / 0)
Happen to any girls?

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.
[ Parent ]
Sure. Plenty of corporal punishment to go around (0.00 / 0)
How about a diary on the UK cratering with jobless rates screaming and grants for students evaporating if you've nothing to do Mr. Creep.
[ Parent ]
girls R kids too (0.00 / 0)
believe it or not. Yeah, they whacked (kinder, gentler terminology for assault) their asses too. No distinction that I saw.

"May we live long and die out"
[ Parent ]
I went to Kindergarten in Tennessee (4.00 / 2)
and my teacher had two huge wooden paddles; 'Big Betsy', for general naughtiness, and 'Little Betsy', for minor infractions - like not falling asleep at naptime, or being the last person to put a toy in the toybox during 'cleanup countdown'. So at the end of each day she would basically line everyone up and spank them. It must have been like that all over the south. I've never heard of these things in northern schools.

OTOH, I went to a northern elementary school for my 6th grade year in a very poor district, and our teacher was this beautiful rich lady. She would have to actually break up fights every now and then, with essentially full grown tough kids. She only had to address each particular child once though, you could see them actually wither the moment they physically realized that she was passionate about her job, and not just some uppity white bitch.

[ Parent ]
Growing up in central Illinois, (4.00 / 2)
I can tell you that the principal of my elementary school for third grade had drilled holes into his paddle so it had less air drag and was more efficient!

One of our fourth grade teachers had a bizarre paddle that was sort of like a short boat oar. One day she got so mad at one of the boys that she swung so hard with the oar and, missing, spun like a top on her high heels - or so it seemed to us kids.

And yes, even in public school, boys used one entrance and girls another, and a teacher was stationed at the boys' entrance in the Winter to knock the hats off of boys who forgot to remove them on entering.

[ Parent ]
3 differences. 1., It was far more severe and continuous (3.00 / 4)
2. If it's your own Dad (or Mom) beating you, it probably leaves much more severe emotional scars.

3. A third possible difference is the degree of punishment being way way out of line with the 'wrong' of not getting a song perfectly right: "if you didn't do it the right way, he would tear you up, really get you"

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

[ Parent ]
Oh, I agree. (3.00 / 1)
I think the thread had turned into speaking of school corporal punishment. Just remembering....
[ Parent ]
That's what my teacher's paddles were like (4.50 / 2)
but 'Little Betsy', she had no holes lol.
[ Parent ]
It was a different world in 1970s California (4.00 / 2)
The point is, severe corporal punishment was very controversial even though widely practiced in the 60s and 70s, just about the same situation as today. 1960s Gary was a big city right next to Chicago, and not cut off from the modern world.

Finally, and most important, this is not about spanking and minor shit, it's about beating the hell out of kids on a regular basis and psychologically terrorizing them. Likely for the usual reason, simply because it got Joe Jackson's rocks off.  

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

[ Parent ]
Corporal Punishment (3.00 / 1)
in Florida public schools by teachers was acceptable up until the 60's.  I only recall seeing a few teachers spanking with their hands (one of my teachers shook children), but there were rumors about what some other teachers did.  Teachers were not allowed to administer corporate punishment after 1970; kids were sent to the assistant principal (If your teachers were spanking in the 70s they were violating standards from the school district).

Even when public corporate punishment was common, most people made a distinction between spanking and beating a child.

[ Parent ]
You are the one spouting Bullshit Fairleft (0.00 / 0)
The sixties gave birth to the threapeutic movement, true,  but physical abuse of children as punishment was the norm in those daze. You are just projecting backwards. First of all, only a small percentage of the "greatest generation" (ie my parents) held college degrees. To think that they were influenced by educators and psychologists is simply incorrect.

The majority of white parents were ignorant, had lived through childhoods devastated by the Depression and WWII. Most were bluecollar, unlike today.

And to say that corporal punishment was confined to the south in those daze (the ever ignorant laura's take)is also incorrect. I graduated high school in 1969. In LA. Therefore, my school years encompassed all of the 1960s. Corporal punishment was prevalent in schools. As you might guess, I received a fair share myslef.

In LA.

The female teachers in our school used to send us down to the gym for one of the coaches to have whacks at us. It was funny, some of the younger coaches were enlightened enough not to follow orders, especially if you were a baseball star....but for the most part it was pull down your pants, bend over and grab your ankles and feel the pain!

I was despised by my Algebra teacher too, a dude who favored whacking me on the topside fingers between the knuckles with that three sided algebraic ruler, or wtf they called it.

And this public school. Lets dont even start in on the abusive nuns and priests at parochial school. RIOTOUS!

I see that you havent taken my advice to limit yourself to writing about what you know....

[:o)

[ Parent ]
It wasn't close to the norm in my Catholic elementary school. (0.00 / 0)
One nun erratically went off on us, but none of the rest did. She was near retirement and just couldn't handle 5th graders, but no one in their right minds would've considered her the norm. The main point is, it was noticed as out of line, but no one stopped her. I think that was the norm back in the 60s in most places.

Gary, Indiana, is most places. But, to tell the truth, this sideshow about how "my teacher whapped me with a ruler back in the 60s/70s so Joe Jackson's sadism was the norm" is utterly lame stupid bullshit.


For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

[ Parent ]
Not saying Joe jacksons "sadism" was the norm. Saying corporal punishment in the 60s was the norm (0.00 / 0)
and that your statement that it wasnt is utter bullshit.

Here's another point to consider: how much of jacksons arrested development and tragic life was a result of his being a childhood superstar, a freak before he self-freaked? Only Judy Garland in my recollection transitioned from a huge childhood stardom to adult stardom on a worldwide scale, and she didnt end up in a very pretty state of mind either.

I think the obsession with Joe misses a more obvious point.

Stardom inflicts its own punishments, and Michael wanted that stardom badly or he wouldnt have pursued it after he was an adult.

As always, you are oversimplifying and missing at least half the point. Michael jackson could have walked from showbiz at age thirteen, if he had truly wanted to. He knew the consequences (according to Lisa Marie) of the life he chose, and he accepted them.

[ Parent ]
So now Joe Jackson is not the topic (5.00 / 1)
Some boring evidence-free shit like "what was the norm in the 60s" is the topic. Go ahead, talk your fool head off.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
Dr. Spock was _very_ widely read (0.00 / 0)
I.e., his child-rearing was the best-selling book of the era, and he was against corporal punishment. Not that everybody read Spock, but his perspective, the consensus psychology profession perspective since WWII, was very widely known and dispersed in the schools.

Spock's perspective was still controversial, cuz most parents still thought it was okay to immediately slap their kid on the butt when he/she did something very stupid or (especially) dangerous. But parents knew at least that there was 'something funny' about beating the fuck out of your kids on a regular basis.

But, again, what Joe Jackson did to his kids is so far beyond 'spanking' it is a distortion to be comparing the two.  

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

[ Parent ]
Fuck you, again (0.00 / 0)
I was in kindergarten in the 80's, moved to the north a year later. In-school corporal punishment was taboo there(several different northern states in the next few years).
[ Parent ]
Yeah, and I'm not talking about the 80s am I wonder woman? Follow the argument if you can (0.00 / 0)
Fairleft made the statement that corproal punishment was not widespread during the 60s. He was 20 years off. The children of the 60s largely resolved the problem, true.

In fact, the 60s solved lotsa problems for the coming generation of looosers. We paid the price for changing the direction.

Bet on it.

[ Parent ]
Yeah. Okay. Then leave me out of it fuckface. (4.00 / 1)
And thanks for all you accomplished, o 'chile of the sexties'. We have cum so far.
[ Parent ]
Thats wright! Finally you say something approaching an intelligent statement. Sure, its by accident, but great!. Nothing has really changed at all! (0.00 / 0)
Despite all the moronic blathering to the contrary. Humanity cannot solve humanities problems. Bet on it.

Now we have kidz who are overly protected, which creates another set of issues for a society and civilzation in decline.

Hows that Honduran Overthrow by Obama going for you, BTW? And the leftists lining up behing Khamanei?

RIOTOUS!

[ Parent ]
Fuck You (0.00 / 0)
infinitee
[ Parent ]
I said sorta the opposite, (3.00 / 1)
that saying corporal punishment was the norm in the 1960s sounded like excuse-making bullshit to me.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
There's always been physical abuse (4.00 / 2)
in American Evangelical families, Black or white.  Especially among Fundamentalists, there is a Patriarchal culture which condones the submission of women and beating of children (spare the rod, spoil the child).  An orderly and submissive hierarchy in the home helps facilitate the efficient hierarchy in the male-dominated churches.  

Dogemperor had a good series at Talk to Action about child abuse in dominionist churches.  This sort of activity not only was common in the 60's, it still goes on today (only now, fundies have to be coached about how to hide the signs from social workers or even "unsympathetic" relatives).

[ Parent ]
Well fuck them then (0.00 / 0)
They need to be considered criminal conspiracies, and sick a modern Giuliani and the RICO laws after them.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
Besides, can't you distinguish 'normal' (3.50 / 2)
beating with 'the belt' or wtf versus the psychological and physical sadism Joe Jackson was practicing on his kids?

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
neither can you (3.00 / 2)
I agree he sounds extreme, but we weren't there.  Seems MJ is the only one who turned into a puddle of puss over it though the whole family is weird.  Do I think he abused his kids?  For sure.  Blaming his wife for doing nothing is likely ill informed though.

All I'm saying is calling her an enabler is OTT.  Heavy handed father figures were very common in the South.  Just who would she go to to report "child abuse"?  The cops would have laughed.

[ Parent ]
No they wouldn't have. Take some pics (0.00 / 0)
and take 'em down to the cops. Photos of severe abuse and injuries would've gotten "even people in the 1960s" to do their jobs.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
To this day, Fairleft, physical/sexual abuse by family members is treated more lightly by the courts than (0.00 / 0)
physical/sexual abuse by strangers...its codified! See my links in the 'Beat it' diary over on MLW for detailz.

Anyway, Im out. Not supposed to online this weekend. have a happy "Independence day'

irony alert.

[ Parent ]
Serial visible physical injuries and sexual abuse (talk to LaToya)? (4.00 / 1)
No, I don't think that would've been treated likely in the 60s. But, again, if you have Mom and Dad making excuses and no adult witnesses, you'll always have a hard time. I was talking about if Mom had decided to put a stop to the madness by taking pix of the worst physical abuse and taking those and her (older) kids to the cops.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
photos of exactly what? (0.00 / 0)
bumping a kid into a wall doesn't necessarily leave a mark.  Ever tried to photograph verbal abuse?  I can't get my camera to focus properly on that.

Whacked with a belt through clothes?  No marks of significance.  And in that day and age in a blue collar town, expecting cops to arrest a father for "discipline" is a bit hopeful.  You seem to live in some left behind land where the rules are clear and everyone agrees on them.  Too bad it's not reality.

[ Parent ]
And you might remember the race culture at the time... (3.00 / 2)

It was called discipline, and the cops approved of it.

I can't even imagine a 60's parent getting a serious hearing about her husband "training" her kids wrong.

And she'd have been understanding what would happen to her.

Postwar. Rosie the Riveter all gone. Racism all back.

Tons of family stress.

[ Parent ]
Sounds like it was severe and left obvious ugly evidence; sexual abuse leaves evidence; (4.00 / 1)
But no, let's pretend the 1960s were pre-history when neanderthals roamed the earth.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
as usual (0.00 / 0)
you believe what you believe based on fingerpainting from afar and ignore information from people who lived in the times and in similar places.

Left behind -- one of the best ones the Donkey ever coined.

[ Parent ]
Uh oh, JohnDoe's got out his Ouija board again! (0.00 / 0)


For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
with the sock puppet asswipe.

She would more likely have been another abuser not merely an enabler.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

[ Parent ]
She's got her multi-millions, so _now_ she finally realizes (3.00 / 1)
what an asshole she married. She likely went along cuz she thought Joe's criminally insane scheme to beat and terrorize his kids into pop stars might actually work.  

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
Has anyone in this thread been to Gary Indiana? (4.00 / 1)
It's an absolute waking nightmare, which was peaking during the Jacksons' childhood. Lowest life expectancy, highest murder rate, highest pollution in the country, etc.
[ Parent ]
It was doing relatively very well, lotsa union jobs, during the Jacksons' years there. (0.00 / 0)
Not sure what you mean by peaking. The steel industry was destroyed in the 70s, after the Jacksons were rich and in California.  

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep
[ Parent ]
It was always a shithole, jobs or not (0.00 / 0)
and the steel layoffs started in the early 60's, there. The population was up by +30% by the end of the 50's, and down by about 2% within the next decade.

It's pretty hard to find real negative historical statistics online about Gary, but I grew up not that far from there and it was common knowledge that their life expectancy was the lowest in the nation, though it was due more to pollution than the murder rate, which also held the record - for decades.

[ Parent ]
Your home, sweet home? (4.00 / 2)
If you'd like to have a logical explanation
How I happened on this elegant syncopation
I will say without a moment of hesitation
There is just one place that can light my face ...
[ Parent ]
One of my kids' favorite (4.33 / 3)
roadtrip moments was realizing that the "Welcome to Gary" sign is painted on the sewage treatment plant.
[ Parent ]
...it's those 'little things' that maek it so charming (4.00 / 2)
I always used to stop in Gary on my way to Chicago to take post-apocalyptic pictures in my artsy younger days.

The only other place in the US that's comparable is Detroit, when it comes to bombed out superstructures.

Got stranded in an unheated Gary Greyhound station one Christmas eve, after losing my bags and coat. The other ten or so people there were all talking to separate and imaginary entities; it was rather enlightening.

Of course the main cultural legacy of Gary is its signature smell, which hits you about 15 miles before the actual city limits.

[ Parent ]
Gary was/is a very heavily polluted place, (3.00 / 1)
but what do you expect from a steel town? Dad worked in the steel mills and had a steady job, you can bet a pretty damn good-paying union job (compared to the non-unionized working class jobs of today), as a crane operator, till the Jackson 5 signed with Motown. So this isn't the story of poverty-stricken ghetto desperado dragging his family out of bleak poverty by any means necessary. It's the story of a sadistic asshole.

The Jacksons moved from Gary after the Jackson 5 recorded their first album in 1969.

By that time, the steel industry, in which Jackson's father had worked, had started to decline. Over the following decades, the city's unemployment and poverty soared, crime increased and the population dwindled.

Nearly 200,000 people lived in Gary in the 1960s. By 2007, that dropped to 96,000 and one-third of residents lived below the poverty line, according to recent U.S. Census data.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

For more on Joe's work history:

http://askville.amazon.com/job...

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

[ Parent ]
You know I'm not excusing the brutality, right? (3.00 / 1)
The fact is, that this family story could have originated in any depressed area, at any point in history. Gary is just an especially nasty place to grow up in. Gary's civilian steel boom(the excess of actual blue collar jobs iow), was in the 1930's, and everything beyond that is, in fact, relatively downhill - regardless of the jobs available. There was no way to get 'out'. You lived, and eventually died, coughing, in your 600 sq ft cottage. So the dreams of stardom are likely to become cemented after initial success is realized - and the perserverance, the drive, would likely remain strong for these kids, with or without a domineering/abusive figure.
[ Parent ]
I don't think the Jackson family's life in Gary (0.00 / 0)
was nightmarish or 'especially nasty', except for the fact of their father's extreme cruelty and sadism. (I don't think black working-class 1960s urban lives were typically nasty and so on, but I could be wrong.) It's difficult to project back to the exact and comparative state of life of the African-American working class in Gary in the early and mid-60s when the worst of Dad's abuse took place. The steel industry had just began to decline or were about to decline, but if we focus on Dad himself, he had one of the steady, good-paying jobs. Again, this was not a desperado desperately seeking to escape 'the ghetto' on the backs of his kids. He was a comfortable member of the black working class who probably assumed like most working class people back then that he had a decent-paying job (with good health benefits) for life.

On the other hand, they were/are African-American, and that more than any other reason more or less forced them to live in the city, where the pollution was worst. And the abandonment of the city by its white working and middle class had probably been ongoing since the late 40s. But let's not get out of hand here on the pollution thing; was it worse in 1960s valleys of L.A., to which 100s of thousands of white Midwesterners were then flocking? Probably more visible, with its own special smell, yeah.

I don't get the point of your final sentence; I agree with you but don't see the relevance to anything in particular.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

[ Parent ]
hehe (4.00 / 2)
are the madoff sons women too?
nice try tho.

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory
[ Parent ]
And they are being investigated (0.00 / 0)
she is not

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.
[ Parent ]
they worked in the business (0.00 / 0)
she didn't.

Let's see.  One person had a day to day involvement in a firms activity and perhaps the fraud.  The other stayed home and played bridge with the other rich ladies.  

Urah Creep

[ Parent ]
So you say that because she not only benefitted fully (3.00 / 1)
but was also lazy, makes her innocent?

On that logic Bush was uninvolved with most of his entire two terms in office.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

[ Parent ]
Turns out she did work for the company (0.00 / 0)
"My gut feeling is she is not innocent," said Sirotkin, 52. "After being married to him for so many years, and working in the company, I can't believe that she was not involved or at least didn't know."

The little woman defence.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

[ Parent ]
gut feeling = evidence? (0.00 / 0)
nice try Urah.

No question she benefited from her husband's fraud.  Care to cite a specific law against unknowingly spending money the old man drags home illegally?  You might wish to focus on "Intent".

Prove she's dirty and I'll hold the rope.  Otherwise, go back to jacking off Fidel.


[ Parent ]
um, they've been investigating her for 6 months (4.00 / 2)
Federal prosecutors decided not to criminally charge Ruth because they lack evidence that she was either aware of or involved in Bernard Madoff's scam -- which swindled thousands of people and charities out of billions of dollars, said two sources familiar with the case.

That decision comes after an intensive, six-month probe in which investigators scoured financial records and interviewed scores of people.

In the end, the feds found "no criminal exposure" for Ruth, a source said. http://www.nypost.com/seven/07...



The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory
[ Parent ]
Didn't say they were investigating her (0.00 / 0)


"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.
[ Parent ]
intentionally obtuse as usual (0.00 / 0)
you assume they chose to not prosecute sans an investigation?  I admit that idea fits your bizarro world view, but it's pretty unlikely in reality.  

you really are lame Urah.

[ Parent ]
U.S. Marshals evicted her from the penthouse today (4.00 / 2)
She had to over all of her personal property as part of a deal she made with federal prosecutors that allowed her to keep $2.5 million, but may lose that if Madoff's victims pursue her in civil court.  NYPost:

It was not disclosed where Ruth will now live. A number of Manhattan buildings have refused to rent to her because of her notoriety.


"I dont just discuss Meta, I create meta." - donkeytale
[ Parent ]
Greenwald admits Obama is torturing people for the first time (4.00 / 1)
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g...

And oddly enough he lists two prior examples of stories about Obama torturing so he's obviously been aware of it for sometime.  As regualr readers know I assumed Obama would carry on torturing all year.  It's was pretty fucking obvious after all.  Greenwald along with everyone else in the Pwoggiesphere took Obama at his not-quite word when he declared (sort of) that he would stop the torture and anyway (as Bush said) "America does not torture".

Peasants.

Anyone who says, "America does not torture" means America does torture.  If anyone really wanted to stop torture they would not pretend America never had tortured.

So anyway Greenwald cites three articles talking about how Obama is still torturing although two different and better articles had been posted to his comments thread before today.

The quote is way down the post because it's a secondary issue for Greenwald (that Obama is a torturer just like Bush was).

In fact, as reported just recently by Harper's Luke Mitchell, Jeremy Scahill, and Lt. Col. Barry Wingard, there is ample evidence that very serious abuse is still occurring in America's detention facilities, including at Guantanamo (all of which confirmed similar reports from earlier this year).

Ironically --- how ironically -- Greenwald refuses to call it torture, and instead uses the euphemism "abuse", even though his entire article's main point is how the US media refuse to call Bush's torture "torture".

The article at harpers is titled:
We still torture:
The new evidence from Guantánamo

Greenwald's intro / link:
there is ample evidence that very serious abuse is still occurring

What a total dipshit the guy is.  Pathetic.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

Technical terms for "cruelty" and "torture" (0.00 / 0)
both of which forms of abuse are war crimes.  Bushco believed that the levels of abuse didn't cross the threshold from "cruelty" to "torture."  They used this rationale to bolster their claims that they didn't torture, relying on public perceptions of the common use of the word rather than the technical.

Of course, just because Bushco claimed that the level of abuse didn't cross the technical torture threshold, doesn't make it so.  It doesn't make it any more so for the Obama administration; but even if what they are doing isn't "torture," they shouldn't be inflicting "cruelty" either.

[ Parent ]
Not a single oe of his commentators (4.00 / 3)
notices that Greenwald is doing (for Obama) exactly what NPR is doing (for Bush) -- refusing to call it torture.  Even while condemning the use of euphemisms.  

What a riot.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

and now the real wife is suing! (4.00 / 3)
from her blogger profile:
My name is Princess Zaynab bint Fahd bin Khalid al-Saud. My father is popularly known as Satan the Devil. I am from Saudi Arabia and I am married to the American Superstar Singer Michael Jackson as Nona Paris Lola Ankhesenamun Jackson.

hehe
Michael Jackson was married and his wife is demanding all of his property -- this according to a woman who just filed a petition in L.A. County Superior Court.

Nona Paris Lola Ankhesenamun Jackson, who lives in London, asks "that all my husband's properties, monies and assets must be transferred to me immediately" and "my husband's body must be returned to the coroner's body [sic] or the mortuary immediately."

Of course, there is no evidence this woman had any relationship whatsoever to Michael Jackson. She's had an active court case since December of last year, claiming she was married to the singer.

Nona also claims all of Michael's children are hers and that she didn't authorize them to live with Katherine Jackson.

She now claims, "Though he died to this earth he lives with my father [Satan the Devil] Khalid Lucifer."

The doc says "For any questions, I can be contacted at [email address removed] or leave my children alone." http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/...




The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory
Awesome, haha! (4.00 / 1)

[ Parent ]
here she is, i forgot to put the link in the post (0.00 / 0)
http://mjjproductions.blogspot...

The defectors have started an underground railroad to smuggle other rebels out of hostile territory
[ Parent ]
I followed it already, she rules! (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
Huffington Post parrtos Bush propaganda (0.00 / 0)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

So for those following at home the new history of the Iraq war is that Saddam Hussein to the US and claimed he had WMDs.

It's all his fault!


"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.

So what else is new. You STILL go there? (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
So that you don't have to! (3.50 / 2)


"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it", Helen Keller, communist.
[ Parent ]
An American Hometown (4.40 / 5)
(This is actually a Frank Lloyd Wright house)

(Train Station from Gary's glory days)





Lost Indiana on the Gary Sheraton (4.00 / 1)
Pretty sad, but funny:

http://www.lostindiana.net/Los...

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

[ Parent ]
Rowe: "Keep the hell away from my kids, Joe!" (3.00 / 2)
Cheering for Debbie Rowe on this one:

. . . on Thursday, Rowe told NBC's Henry that she would seek a restraining order to keep Jackson's father, Joe Jackson, away from the children.

http://www.usmagazine.com/news...

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness, For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people, For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. -- A-Hep

She knows more than anyone, outside the family, about the actual abuse (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
Yes. keep away from my kids that I sold off (4.00 / 2)
for 30 pieces of silver, then realized I should have gotten 40.

She's no prize either.

[ Parent ]
Joe Jackson beat Michael to turn him into a pop star | 106 comments
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