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New York Times joins the Meta Fray!!!

by: vox humana

Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 22:01:23 PM EDT


Well, friends, once again we at the fringes of the blogging world find ourselves the leaders in consideration of the issues of anonymity, pseudonymity, real-life consequences and all around mayhem that follow the practice of commenting on blogs, whether under our real names or under an assumed name or under multiple names (though the article does not delve into that particular issue... yet to catch up with this part of the blogworld, I suppose.

At any rate, I highly recommend "The Outing of publius" and its well-made points concerning what we do when we decide to post under a given name and what it all means.

vox humana :: New York Times joins the Meta Fray!!!
On Saturday morning, Ed Whelan sent an e-mail to John Blevins that read, in its entirety:

   I am reliably informed that you use the pseudonym publius to blog at Obsidian Wings. Please confirm or deny.

A few hours later, Blevins responded:

   I am not commenting on my identity. For a variety of private, family, and professional reasons, I write under a psuedonym. If I wanted to publicly disclose my name, I would do so.

A few hours after that, Whelan e-mailed Blevins, calling him a "coward," and posted "Exposing an Irresponsible Anonymous Blogger," in which he outed the "publius" who posts at Obsidian Wings as "law professor John F. Blevins of the South Texas College of Law."

Hmmmmmm.
Hmmmmmm.

Apparently in this particular case of uber-meta, it concerned the Sotomayor nomination: publius had been criticizing Ed Whelan, a former official in the Bush Administration.

What do some formerly pseudonymous posters who are now known have to say about the idea of posting undercover? [All bolding and italicization is mine, with the exception of the words "self-serving" in Ed Whelan's post.]

Juan Non-Volck [aka Jonathan Adler]:

While it enables some to hurl reckless charges and gross epithets, it also facilitates the engagement of more individuals in on-line discussion and debate. There are many understandable reasons why intelligent and knowledgeable people in various fields are reluctant to blog under their own name. Adopting a pseudonym is not necessarily a cowardly or sinister act.

Who knew?

Ed Morrisey [under the non-controversial title "Poll: When is it OK to "out" anonymous bloggers?"]:

Had Publius published Ed's personal information, or had slandered him factually, I could understand the need to make his identity public and force him to bear responsibility for such attacks.  However, as Rick says, calling someone a "know-nothing demagogue" doesn't qualify.  It may be annoying, and I think it reflects very poorly on Publius, but that's the kind of ad hominem attack bloggers get from Day One.  Truman's Axiom comes into play here - if a blogger can't take that kind of heat, he ought to reconsider blogging.

Ed's a great blogger, but I think he let Publius get too far under his skin, and he reacted poorly in outing someone and risking their professional career.  Outing Publius didn't do anything to advance Ed's argument, but made him look vindictive and petty instead.  Bloggers should worry less about the anonymity of bloggers (which isn't a "bane" at all) and respond to the arguments instead - or ignore them.

At the end of the article, Juan Non-Volck weighs in again:

While complete anonymity may enable someone to evade any accountability for intemperate or unwise remarks, the creation and maintenance of a pseudonym can have a disciplining effect on blogger behavior, and thus should be encouraged as an alternative to purely anonymous blogging and posting. Reputation effects and the desire to maintain readership can impose significant discipline. A pseudonym operates like a brand name, and the value of the brand is, at least in part, a function of how the pseudonymous blogger acts over time. This disciplining effect is hardly perfect, however, particularly when it comes to maintaining civility. . . . I believe this means that those who utilize pseudonyms should take greater responsibility for the tone and content of their own posts so their pseudonymous shield does not become a license for nastiness and snark (and I hope I was able to do this when I used a pseudonym). But I also believe that, barring exceptional circumstances (e.g. something far worse than wrong-headed criticism) other bloggers should respect the choice of others to rely upon pseudonyms.

Good points, all - though, really: What's a little snark among friends? Perhaps over-inflated egos might stretch the skin too thin that it might burst under the slings and arrows of outrageous 4chan?

On a blog at National Review, Mr. Whelan, who exposed publius' name, responds, attempting to turn it into a conservative vs. liberal issue (is it?):

Law professor John Blevins (aka publius) and others seem to assume that I owed some sort of obligation to Blevins not to expose his pseudonymous blogging.  I find this assumption baffling.  A blogger may choose to blog under a pseudonym for any of various self-serving reasons, from the compelling (e.g., genuine concerns about personal safety) to the respectable to the base.  But setting aside the extraordinary circumstances in which the reason to use a pseudonym would be compelling, I don't see why anyone else has any obligation to respect the blogger's self-serving decision.  And I certainly don't see why someone who has been smeared by the blogger and frequently had his positions and arguments misrepresented should be expected to do so.

Blevins desired to be unaccountable-irresponsible-for the views he set forth in the blogosphere.  He wanted to present one face to his family, friends, and colleagues and another to the blogosphere.  That's understandable but hardly deserving of respect.  If he wanted to avoid the risk of being associated publicly with his views, he shouldn't have blogged.  It's very strange that angry lefties are calling me childish (and much worse) when it's Blevins who was trying to avoid responsibility for his blogging.

.....

When Blevins sent me an e-mail refusing my request that he confirm or deny that he was publius, I responded with a private e-mail, which Blevins himself has made public, that bluntly called him a "coward and idiot."  I do believe that Blevins's conduct was cowardly.  I regret, however, that I was intemperate and hyperbolic in my disparagement of Blevins's intellect, and I hereby apologize to him for that portion of my comment.

Hmmmmmm.
Hmmmmmm.

Law professor Michael Krauss of the Manhattan Institute weighs in:

On the substantive debate between Blevins and Whelan, I think Whelan easily has the upper hand, but readers can decide this for themselves. On the propriety of hiding behind a pseudonym while sniping at a critic who is out in the open, I see no redeeming argument. I hope the South Texas tenure committee is watching and taking note.

So, there we have it. Again. Writ large. Or small, as you choose. The same meta arguments, similar sides.

What say you?

Poll
Could all this be solved if we treated one another with respect?
Yes.

Results

Tags: (All Tags)
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Since online polls are unscientific anyway, (4.00 / 2)
I thought I'd just cut to the chase.

yes....but (3.83 / 6)
that would get pretty boring, pretty quickly. Besides, to me it implies an enforced standard since it's beyond the realm of human possibility for all to treat each other with respect.

There are good arguments to all sides of this issue. But I think the ability to interact while protecting your private life if you choose to is should remain the accepted standard in blogging. Sure, it sucks to get into arguments with people who aren't restrained by responsibility for what they say. But the alternative, besides universal respect, to require real life identity in order to join a blog or a discussion would sure enough cut so many people out of the equation that blogging would become the few writing to the fewer.

The middle ground mentioned by Juan Non-Volck above, i.e., the maintenance of a known pseudonym is the current best of both worlds. Though it doesn't necessarily guarantee that a blogger will always act consistently or predictably. Let alone responsibly. I'm a perfect example of that! :oP I do think though, that there is a certain small level of intent at least, to take responsibility for what you post when you maintain one identity throughout. For better or worse, everything I've posted on blogs from the beginning, in November 2004 has been under this one pseudonym. Cringe worthy as some of it might be :o)

"May we live long and die out"


[ Parent ]
check that (3.00 / 3)
I did create one goofy sock here that I used maybe 3-4 times in the beginning to glorify our whackjobs ;o) Serial sockiness though? Not a fan. But to each their own, so long as you don't usurp a known username verbatim.

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
There are good arguments (4.60 / 5)
to all sides of the issue. Yay!

I think the point about pseudonyms providing comfort for greater numbers of people to participate is a good one.

Ed Morrisey's statement is - well - self-serving. If he grants that one might well adopt a pseudonym for reasons of protecting one's self or one's family, then he should recognize he would have had no way of knowing if that were the case in this instance. It does not appear he made any attempt to find out before publishing the name, either. This means he should not "set aside these considerations," since he never checked at first. What if he had been mistaken?

The point about the right of a pseudonymous poster to criticize a person writing under a real name is very interesting. It does seem it goes back to one of the original reasons for using pseudonyms: to level the field of opinion by letting words stand on their own merits. A non-tenured professor might not (and did not) dare to speak his opinion against a former member of the Bush Administration using his real name. Note that asserting power against the critic was the first thing those who sympathized with Ed Morrisey did: "I hope the South Texas tenure committee is watching and taking note." For what it's worth, I do too, but for opposite reasons!


[ Parent ]
Super, (0.00 / 0)
I'm wondering if you misunderstood my comment at MLW the other day. I know tone can be hard to "hear" online, but I was being critical of what I thought was a sloppy, inaccurate, and lazy essay.

Since I'm here, on the topic of this effort, I have always used the same handle at the dozens of places I have and do post, except at PFF, where I was Roy Solomon ;-) It would take all of 5 minutes for anyone to put together my address, phone number, employer, etc.

Cheers!


[ Parent ]
So it shall be written...... (0.00 / 0)
If he wanted to avoid the risk of being associated publicly with his views, he shouldn't have blogged.  It's very strange that angry lefties are calling me childish (and much worse) when it's Blevins who was trying to avoid responsibility for his blogging.

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What say you motherfucker?

Fuck.


I think I said what I thought (3.00 / 1)
above.

I'm assuming you were talking to me?


[ Parent ]
Nope... (3.00 / 2)
just throwing up a flag about acceptance of such acts.

So are we cool to out people on here vox?

Just give me the word.

Fuck.


[ Parent ]
What are you on about now homie?! (4.25 / 4)
Miss nuance much?

Fucking hell if you haven't been fully borged...


[ Parent ]
Just startin' sheet (0.00 / 0)
you know how I do.

Ain't gonna do nuthin', just try to reprezent and hold it down.

FSZ crew out!

:::exits backwards slowly snapping fingers:::

Fuck.


[ Parent ]
You've been cast (4.50 / 6)
in West Side Story?

Riff?


[ Parent ]
shit... (4.00 / 5)
don't let msplow see this! hahaha

"May we live long and die out"

[ Parent ]
Biter. Only me can call she dat! (3.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Yeah? Well....play it right then (5.00 / 2)
I still recall a day when you whined about withheld advice...

:-/


[ Parent ]
BTW (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for having my back that day.

Also for filling in some of my memory holes from my 18month sabbatical ;)

Ignorance is curable (Dyslexia is NOT)  


[ Parent ]
lol (4.00 / 1)
:::exits backwards slowly snapping fingers:::


[ Parent ]
Homie...is soooo cute tho'~! (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I think I said what I thought (3.67 / 3)
above.

We are not cool to out people here, or there, or anywhere. At least I'm not.... That's one of the reasons I posted this.


[ Parent ]
Ok just checking.... (1.00 / 2)
let me know when such acts are justified.

I mean, i'm busting at the seams with info.

Bye!

Fuck.


[ Parent ]
Such acts are never justified. (4.80 / 5)
And never will be.

Don't ever pretend I said they were. Or ever will be.

Thank you.

And as an administrator of a blog, I don't think you should be implying that you have done any form of investigating any current or former posters at your site unless you have evidence (or perhaps suspicion) of criminal acts on their part. Is that the case?

I have a lot to say about this, but I will leave it to me alone.

If you have information about me, post it. Do it now. Let everyone see what you have found in your time as administrator of fsz. If you found it by asking others to do the work, post that as well. You have my permission. Let everyone see, if that were the case, what you have done with the information given you in trust as an administrator.

If not, please stop implying these threats of releasing information. It does not reflect well on you.

But as for me, I am not concerned. Go ahead. I post pseudonymously for literary reasons and for reasons that I would not want my children or wife held responsible for my political positions and for any number of other reasons. I imagine you did, too. Still, if that is what would bring you closure in this matter, go ahead. And then, let this end.

Matty.


[ Parent ]
Hmmm still no scold of socrates for his "investigating services".... (2.33 / 3)
pull up your fly vox, your hypocrisy is showing.

Laterrrrr.

Fuck.


[ Parent ]
Why are teh points till flying over your head? (4.00 / 3)
Jacques?

[ Parent ]
(S-till) (4.00 / 1)
as in moonshyne.

[ Parent ]
Please stop this. (5.00 / 5)
Please check this comment among many, many others before you tell me what I have or haven't said. Some of them on your blog. Let me highlight the salient part of this one comment:

I said this before and I'll say it again: it doesn't matter what the e-mails said, including the ones you posted. It would have been far better not to have e-mailed him in the first place. That was the first problem. I don't have much interest in what any one e-mail did or didn't say because they should not have happened. Inadmissible evidence for me. And it doesn't matter how anyone else got that address, either. I will say that I don't think you were phishing, as I understand that term to be commonly applied. I believe others have said the same thing.

And I meant what I said above. I won't be bullied and never have been. It's a common mistake people make with pacifists. Post what you have, or don't threaten me. You can say "hypocrite" or "passive-aggressive" or whatever else anyone can come up with, but enough on this. If outing is okay because you feel betrayed by me, then return the favor. Tell everyone who I am - as if it matters. This is getting ridiculous.  


[ Parent ]
You were one of them who made this ridiculous (1.00 / 2)
before this site was ever born.  Your hypocrisy is mind blowing.

[ Parent ]
You can keep saying that (4.33 / 3)
as long as you want. I will not be cowed.

Post what you have, or encourage Jack to do the same if he has anything.

It appears you have no interest in hearing me out, despite what I have said over and over. People can read who has said and done what and can judge my hypocrisy. I'm okay with that.

None of it will harm fsz because it is here. I don't mean to blow your mind, but I won't have mine played with. So, here we are.


[ Parent ]
This isn't about some secret communications (0.00 / 0)
It's about your reaction to outings vs. your reaction to bannings of outers.

You can't claim outrage over outings when you still post at sites that condone them.  Get real.

Stop playing an idiot.  You're well aware of why I've said what I've said and it has nothing to do with Jack or secret communications between any other people.... it's about your own reactions.


[ Parent ]
I claim outrage over (4.25 / 4)
sites violating their own rules.

I am no idiot though you are welcome to your opinion, and your perception of my reactions is not the reactions themselves.


[ Parent ]
So this is about legality to you (2.00 / 1)
without regard to ethics and morality?

Usually the latter two mean more to me than the former.


[ Parent ]
So how do you feel about socrates outting me (a.k.a. publicizing my identity)? (0.00 / 0)
for the act or against?

Fuck.

[ Parent ]
But he di'n't. Mmmkay? (3.25 / 4)
I mean I know it sucks, but you can't sincerely think that his 'outing' you was any more prominent in the larger scheme than what you did to yourself. It's fuckin inconsequential...all this we've been bitxhfighting over. Three, four inconsequential blogs. Come on.

[ Parent ]
Shit.... (4.00 / 1)
hope condo doesn't drop any info on anybody here.

Then I can get away scot-free with blowing it up all over the internet when it leaks.


Fuck.


[ Parent ]
I'm not sweating it, if that's what you imply (4.00 / 3)
Rly...what are you saying?

I never played around with those pedophiles anyway...did you? Beyond the obvious I mean...


[ Parent ]
I'm sure you've already leaked... (3.00 / 3)
...whatever you know to Lauren so she can post it as a sock puppet.

If you're going to be vague, Jack, then we'll just go with the most obvious answers to fill in your inuendos.  


[ Parent ]
You're dishonest ass would allow no other way (0.00 / 0)
Jump to conclusions based on complete wild specualtion connected with zero facts and go with it as the basis for your argument.

Why would you do anything else?  It's what you do.


[ Parent ]
your, not you're (0.00 / 0)
smacks self in head


[ Parent ]
Smack harder... (0.00 / 0)
...and use a brick next time.

:)


[ Parent ]
Now, really. (0.00 / 0)
Well, you are tenacious in your approach, I'll certainly give you that!

Why bother? It's pretty clear at this point that none of this is going to go anywhere right now. This diary didn't do what I had hoped, but it taught me a few things anyway.

I wish I were a faster essayist. I don't tend to post much, even with diaries such as this that are mostly cut and paste. This place could use more content from its contributors, but my own writing style has been too slow for that. Maybe I can push myself a little to put more up here.

Any ideas?


[ Parent ]
I have no approach. (4.00 / 2)
And yes, I agree, more content here, less meta.  

[ Parent ]
As if any specificity by me would be taken in.... (0.00 / 0)
the point is opposition for the sake of it until all that is left is 4 people who agree with each other about their opposition to whatever nonsense they come up with.

Exclusiveness fills the empty void.

Keep in mind that I never pursued anyone with malicious intent, after what was done (threat of banning and then banning) was done I left it at that and did not try to cross into RL territory.

To be able to pick on one person and gang up on them defines the group here.  Those who effectively beat up the one being picked on the harshest gets the best pat on the back.  If they start to feel bad about picking on the person they come up with a justifiable reason to allow such harsh treatment (i.e. "they started it", "he's a fag", "he deserves it", etc.).  If it makes everyone feel better to pick on a person who has always been the new kid from moving constantly due to his parents inability to afford rent/mortgage and has seen every type of bully culture to know exactly why and how this happens then fine.  

There's absolutely nothing can do or say because all bullies are just stubborn assholes that get sick pleasure from pulling on your backpack to make you fall down the stairs.

There won't be agreement with anything I say after this comment, or maybe there will be and it will somehow be twisted around and thrown back at me (textbook move of the desperate bully) but the only thing that must stand is the opposition, dislike, and mistreatment.

Without that you have nothing to live for and no reason for your miserable existence of being nothing but a repository for fallen through expectations and failed attempts to better yourself because you pulled the rug from underneath you.

Free shots, come and get it.


Fuck.


[ Parent ]
Did socrates steal your password? (3.00 / 3)
Because this comment sounded nothing like Jack the Radical.  Jack who thrives on getting in people's faces and seeing what kind of reaction he'll get.

If socrates (or anyone else for that matter) wrote such a comment about bullies, some Kos Kop puppet would be calling them "whiny."


[ Parent ]
I don't think this comment (3.00 / 1)
makes much sense, but I will agree with you that you did not try to cross into real life territory, as far as I can see, other than mentioning elsewhere in these comments that you are "busting at the seams with info." How could that be?

There's been plenty of bullying to go around, it seems to me. And misrepresentation. And misunderstanding. And anger. And hurt. And. And. And....

So, what's a good way toward peace, do you think?


[ Parent ]
Jack... (4.20 / 5)
...your comments in this diary are not vague in the respect that they lack a specific screen name, they are vague because it APPEARS that it is YOU who is threatening to use information you have on others -- it is IMPLIED through your vagueness that you are willing to demonstrate what you allege happened to you by doing the exact same things to others who didn't support your actions.  Furthermore, your comments and diaries indicate that you think that those of us who disapproved of your methods approved of EVERYTHING that you claim has happened to you at the hands of those who were initially involved in your 'mock' banning.  All of this in spite of repeated concessions that none of us ever completely approved of what donkeytale, socrates or DavidByron wrote while at FSZ.  It has always been an 'All or Nothing' proposition with you...either unquestioningly with you, or all-out against you.  Very black and white.  

Don't think for one second that you have exclusive personal knowledge of how bullies operate.  And don't think for one second that in your desire to be 'right' you haven't encouraged the very behavior in your supporters that you felt were obligated to nip in the bud in your capacity as the admin at FSZ.  And just so you and I are square, I haven't called for one person to be banned as a result of annoying sock puppetry here.  And not to put too fine a point on it, when FeloniousMonk began his little 'dirt-digging' campaign to find out real life bullshit in my life (saying that my friends and family would be contacted in his effort to dig up some real life shit on me), I never called for his banning.  Many of us on this side of the issue have dealt with the EXACT same behavior from other users you claim you suffered at the hands of socrates.  The exception, jack, is that none of us have ever called for our 'tormentors' to be banned, since no site rules were ever broken.

I have no interest in taking free shots...none.


[ Parent ]
Ok soooo....what? (0.00 / 0)
Is that an admittance of no empathy?

You say you were put in the exact same position before, how did it feel?

Good?

How would you have felt if an entire group of people were the audience in opposition egging on such behavior?

How would you feel then? Betrayed?

Would you trust these same people who went to great lengths to up hold the "principle" of free speech to the point of defending somebody who turned out to be a fucking psychopathic crazy fuck that scared the shit out of you by showing great interest in knowing who you were?

No, I think you would be pissed.  But to ask you to see this from a non-4ked centered world is fucking impossible because you're such a stubborn arrogant fucking prick that you don't give a shit about anybody's feelings except, well, socrates' and whoever else you can use as a shield to start bullshit drama for no reason.

Lay off the bottle and stop talking to Otvos, you became a real prick after you met him.



Fuck.


[ Parent ]
I wuv u, you impreshnuble cutie (4.00 / 2)
but we old folks have our standards(Otvos not included). And now you're getting it. You're growing your own too.

Little sprouts, but they are growing.

:-)

(I'm sotch an asshole, to teach you something. An idiot myself)


[ Parent ]
Quite the contrary... (4.40 / 5)
...on many points.

First, I DO empathize with you.  Do not mistake my personal animus for Lauren S for me not having a certain amount of sympathy for the postion you were in.  

Second, my empathy extends to melvin, as well.  Having empathy for you and believing you handled the situation inappropriately are not contradictory positions.

Third, I am COMPLETELY indifferent to socrates.

Fourth, my feelings for individuals have nothing to do with my position.  I couldn't disagree more with hidden comment on this issue, and I couldn't enjoy her more...and she certainly knows how to push my buttons.  The same is true of cometman.

Fifth, do not blame Otvos for me being a prick.  No one knows better than Otvos how much of a prick I can be.  I've wriiten at least one scathing indictment of Otvos's dispassionate eugenics theories and have also called him out because of his fawning adoration of Obama -- on line AND in person.

Sixth, both the 'Lay off the bottle' (ad hom) and Otvos reference (guilt by asociation) are beneath a smart, college-educated fella like you.  Leave those kinds of mealy-mouthed, INVALID forms of argument to Lauren.  Anyway, when you write it, it just doesn't have the same kind of 'pop' as when Lauren started it (and frankly, even Laura said it was BORING).  It sounds rather bitchy in a ridiculous sort of way coming from a guy wo was expecting 'free shots' to be fired at him.  Play by the rules you set for others.

And as far as me being stubborn -- more than a little projection on your part there.  Consistent, yes.  I've stuck to my guns...regardless of how many wrinkles you've added to this drama.  And Jack, your story HAS evolved over time.  That may be because you went off half-cocked BEFORE you had all the information you needed to act responsibly.  


[ Parent ]
Ok so maybe i'm the only one.... (3.00 / 1)
but like, when you scrape the side of your sack do you smell your hand?

It's like wicked good but like bad at the same time.

Fuck.


[ Parent ]
Hmmm... (5.00 / 1)
...it has been a while.  Lately, Lauren S has been scraping the side of my sack...and yeah, as soon as she's through she sticks her fingers up her nose and inhales DEEPLY (and her eyes roll back in her head).  Feels good to me and she gets something she needs, too -- the very definition of a symbiotic relationship.

:)


[ Parent ]
Against, (0.00 / 0)
if he did that.

And I mean that, Jack.

Against.


[ Parent ]
am I wrong (0.00 / 0)
or did YOU posted his email add first? "I know I miss a lot" but it I think I remember that -

FWY Your Veiled Threats toward Voc have not gone unnoticed: Once again you prove me wrong about this comment


Look I came to your site in its final hours but from my view it appeared to be kos crazy camp. Full of kiss asses (your kiss asses) run by a guy with a G-d Complex.
Then again I missed much, so I could be wrong.
http://www.pffugeecamp.com/sho...

I was way off the mark with that ;)

And we will live each day in springtime
La la la la la la la


Ignorance is curable (Dyslexia is NOT)  


[ Parent ]
oh that was snark (0.00 / 0)
I Nailed It!

Ignorance is curable (Dyslexia is NOT)  

[ Parent ]
I would tell you you're wrong... (2.00 / 1)
but wrong and right have nothing to do with evidence and everything to do with what people think of you.

Facts depend on emotion and mood here.

Soooo sure, lets go with what you think.  Then from that point it can split into different paths and become a whole bunch of theories and meta history that I can come back here a week from now and read a diary that absolutely amazes me in how quickly adults can become worse then high school girls in a wealthy school district.

May your only problems be on the blogosphere, take care Beach.


Fuck.


[ Parent ]
I hope only problems be on the blogosphere (0.00 / 0)
as well...

If I was wrong about the addy sorry.
Like I said I dont read everything...

Twistier is the name of the game, and I really don't like how you have threaded Voc (like he wrote if you have something to say write) What I would write "put up or shut up"

you take care as well


Ignorance is curable (Dyslexia is NOT)  


[ Parent ]
So outing people, no outrage (0.00 / 0)
Banning people who threaten it nonstop and end up doing it at your new favorite site, outfuckingrage.

Got it.  Brilliant.


[ Parent ]
Naw. You missed it. Brillyant. (5.00 / 3)


[ Parent ]
Take it from me... (4.50 / 2)
...she aint worth it, Laura.  
Neither is Jack.
There is a REAL reason why this site exists.
Just look at doberman pinche's VERY first comment here.
It has been a major clusterfuck since April 12 -- just like Beach said.
It has come 360 degrees.  Jack has turned into the very person he claims was threatening him.

Hypocrisy, indeed.

Fuck it...socks aside, we all know who and what we're dealing with.

:)


[ Parent ]
Well, I take them all for what they offer... (4.00 / 2)
And since it's virtualistic, I levy a meager tax. My bullshit filter is sooo fucking straight, that such things don't bother me. But I do regard the damage...and it is a puzzlement. Too bad we couldn't all meat. MEAT!

[ Parent ]
No. (4.00 / 5)
I am giving permission now for either you or Jack to post any information you have about me. Why not? If you feel this is what makes me hypocritical, then let's solve that.

Jack posted his own information after he felt goaded to do so from a lengthy e-mail correspondence, as I understand it (and I am more than willing to be corrected). That was not good, and I have said so.

All that has been said to me and from me, however, has been said online except for one e-mail from Jack I paraphrased in my last diary at fsz. I am willing to post it in its entirety with his permission.

I am not afraid of threats or misrepresentations, because I stand behind every word I have written, even when I have made mistakes. If anyone wants to say who I am because they feel I "deserve it" for "hypocrisy," go ahead.


[ Parent ]
That is fucking retarded (0.00 / 0)
I am giving permission now for either you or Jack to post any information you have about me. Why not? If you feel this is what makes me hypocritical, then let's solve that.

What the fuck does that have to do with my comment.  I wasn't aware I was answering for Jack, remember that shit about not putting other people and their accusations/problems in comments.... oh yeah, that's called GODDAMN YOU'RE A HYPOCRITE YET AGAIN.

Why would I have the slightest interest in outing you or even investing time to find out who you are?  What the FUCK does that have to do with my comment, Vox?  Not one goddamned motherfucking thing.  Nice job.  You are a fucking hypocrite.

Jack posted his own information after he felt goaded to do so from a lengthy e-mail correspondence, as I understand it (and I am more than willing to be corrected). That was not good, and I have said so.

Weirdness again, I wasn't aware my name was Jack.  I'll have to defer to your policy on this one, again.  From now on, can you also defer to your own stated policy of not bringing other people into posts directed at a single person?  Oh wait, double standards aren't at play with you, are they?  That would be a fucking SHOCK!  Don't give me a heart attack, please.


All that has been said to me and from me, however, has been said online except for one e-mail from Jack I paraphrased in my last diary at fsz. I am willing to post it in its entirety with his permission.

Are you aware of who you are replying to?  Did you actually think this paragraph had more relevance to the comment I posted than the last excerpt?  It doesn't and you already knew it, hypocrite.  Take your issues with Jack's personal comments up with Jack.  I'm talking about your hypocrisy and what jack says or does not say has nothing to do with my comment.

But you surely already know this.

I am not afraid of threats or misrepresentations, because I stand behind every word I have written, even when I have made mistakes. If anyone wants to say who I am because they feel I "deserve it" for "hypocrisy," go ahead.

Did you leave FSZ when people were being outed?  
NO.  So your outrage was simply a bit of faux outrage where you said "oh tsk tsk I don't agree with this".   The minute somebody who has outed people for years on the tubs gets banned from FSZ?  OUTRAGE!!!! THE HORROR!!!!  OMG!!!!

Get real and respond to what I actually say if you're going to respond at all.  I don't care if you respond to my comments but if you're going to, at least make it the slightest bit relevant without going full blown hypocrite.  It ain't asking a lot.


[ Parent ]
Eat a dick... (3.00 / 1)
...Bitch.

:)


[ Parent ]
You can take my raincheck (0.00 / 0)
It'll help your diet more than mine.

[ Parent ]
Nobody was outed (5.00 / 3)
when I left fsz. Had anyone been, I would have supported the banning of the person who had done such a thing. Absolutely.

As for the rest of your comment, I apologize if I misunderstood you. I am very aware of the person to whom I speak. So, you felt attacked at fsz? Or were we talking about Jack in that regard?

"Hypocrite" would bother me if I felt it applied. I can be criticized for my position in all of this (and should be), but that ain't it.

And now, if as you say you do not care if I respond to your comments, you need not respond to this one.


[ Parent ]
People have been outed here and at FSZ (0.00 / 0)
You were there at both sites for each of them.

I don't respond to you with the idea that I don't care if you responde, but at least abide by what you've said in just the past week if you're going to engage.  I bring other people into my attacks on you and it's a major faux paux.  Not so much if it's you spending 90% of your comment to me addressing Jack.  I actually couldn't care less if you do that except it's just another glaring example of hypocrisy.  

You see me engaging ANYbody here with a real argument besides you?  I don't because you and Laura are the only people here who I'm seeing worth a fucking rat's ass in responding to, you only because you're the person who got me to FSZ and because of the discussions we had at DailyKos before you decided Jack was the devil incarnate and Socrates doesn't even need to be addressed.


[ Parent ]
I never said Jack was (4.00 / 3)
the devil incarnate! Not at all. I disagree with him strongly on his administration, but the devil incarnate? Now, really. I have said many times that I think each of us has hurt the other unintentionally. I see why he did some of what he did. I still think he made mistakes. Oh, well for me.

"Socrates doesn't even need to be addressed?" What does that mean?

We'll have to take that up tomorrow, though. Good night.


[ Parent ]
hyperbole (0.00 / 0)
I obviously don't think you have called anybody in existence "the devil incarnate".

It's about the comparison.  What Jack did was just the end of the road, he committed the sin of sins.  Socrates outing people, no problem, you still post where it's allowed.  

Good night.


[ Parent ]
this is not personal Voc (4.00 / 2)
Lauren like to use "devil incarnate" you are sometime so fair it pains me...

I have nothing but respect for you (sincerely ;)

but watching you walk into their fist over and over so they can hit you hurts me.

 

Ignorance is curable (Dyslexia is NOT)  


[ Parent ]
Fuck you, Lauren... (4.25 / 4)
...you have painted all of us with the same wide brush strokes.  Worse.  You hit vox the worst right after he left FSZ.  You are the one who started the 'sanctimonius' theme.  And now you want to make it like he and Laura are the only 2 people here who are reasonable.  You have been a MAJOR part of the problem in resolving this.

YOU!

I may have made an ass of myself stooping to your level, but the fact remains that there isn't a dime's worth of difference between where vox and I stand on this entire episode.  We openly commented to each other at FSZ just prior to Jack's theatrics which was the catalyst for this entire episode.  

What has changed?  Why, all of a sudden, are vox's and Laura's opinions worth a rat's ass?  You didn't seem to give a shit before.  Why all of a sudden this very exclusive reaching out?  He might be religious...it might be in his nature to be forgiving, Lauren, but he's not an idiot...and you can take that to the bank.  If anyone has questions to answer, it is not vox humana, it is YOU.


[ Parent ]
LMAO oh you delivered better than even I expected on a Makers Mark Night! Hanks! (0.00 / 0)
You are the one who started the 'sanctimonius' theme.

Did you say that with a straight face?  I only ask because I think I'll probably be laughing uncontrollably each time I come back to this comment and read it again.

You and a handful of others made SANCTIMONIOUS your calling card at FSZ long before this site was ever created.

Bet on it, bitch, but please keep the hilarity coming.  Glug glug glug.  Drink it up!


[ Parent ]
every time that we oooooh... (5.00 / 1)
I'm more in love with you
La la la la la la la...


Ignorance is curable (Dyslexia is NOT)  

[ Parent ]
Yep (0.00 / 0)
Still funnier than fuck.  

[ Parent ]
go back a read my diary (4.50 / 2)
Jack got this ball rolling with his

Attention All Users: Cleaning House (Rule Enforcement)
http://www.freespeechzoneblog....
Sun Apr 12, 2009 at 19:17:10 PM EDT

read the comment most are about David: socrates is a side note... your deflection of the truth is mindbogglingly.

La la la la la la la...  

Ignorance is curable (Dyslexia is NOT)  


[ Parent ]
You couldn't be more wreckless... (3.00 / 2)
...and irresponsible, and this coming from someone who doesn't post with a pseudonym.  This is how you represent FSZ and the 'Leftie' politics of your blog?  Maybe Lauren S is the first blognality you should expose, you fucking creep.

You are nothing but ego unchecked by principle or conscience.  You're a joke.  You should have gone to Northwestern...they have a much more rigorous Ethics program.  I'm only too glad to know who you are in real life.


[ Parent ]
Yep, Definitely a Makers Mark night (0.00 / 0)
Enjoy and cheers!  :-D

[ Parent ]
Well...I'll be jiggered~! (4.00 / 1)
Photobucket

Aren't you the cutest thang~!?

Serious, too~!


[ Parent ]
Lauren, you're so cute! (4.00 / 1)

I noticed upthread you called someone "retarded". Just realize that it isn't for your "brains" that we like you.


Not the real point (0.00 / 0)
With the First Amendment totally dead people standing on the soapbox of anonymity via the internet just has to be ended.
Trust me, they,"them, them" know who you are and where to come to get you.

What would happen (3.50 / 2)
to bloggers in China?

[ Parent ]
Excellent point (0.00 / 0)
It's really just a cultural difference.  Here we have kinder gentler gulags technology wise.  You can speak all you want into the vast multi-tiered warehouse of compartments that no larger percentage of people will ever read.  So even if you did have the fountain of youth, the smoking gun answer to all that is policital you are still an ant in the Illuminati universe and can't be allowed to have influence over large numbers of sheeple.

[ Parent ]
Well. that's okay, I think. (0.00 / 0)
A large number of people don't want to hear what most of us have to say, so it works out in a way by the time you get to the fringes.

The grassroots don't take hold by seeding corporate farms, after all.


[ Parent ]
In this sentence, (3.00 / 1)
At any rate, I highly recommend The Outing of publius ...

you might want to write either "The Outing of publius" or The Outing of publius, even though it is already highlighted by the link.  While it is clearly the title of an article to anyone reading this diary, the quote easily could be taken out of context to suggest that you meant something different.  Considering how frequently that kind of behavior happens in these parts ...


That's a very good point. (0.00 / 0)
Thanks. I'll fix it.

[ Parent ]
NYT (4.00 / 1)
being solidly mainstream thus contributes to the general theme that the internet is only a toy, has no credibility and that for "real news" one must trust only the establishment.  Ya, it's summer and horsemanure smells more.

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